INTERVIEW | Osmo Vänskä | "as long as there is life, Mozart is going to be there"

In conversation with Osmo Vänskä (오스모 벤스케)

Interviewed at Harrison Parrott, London on 4 April 2019.

Osmo Vänskä, © Joel Larson

Few days ago, Osmo Vänskä was appointed as the next Music Director of the Seoul Philharmonic Orchestra, effective from January 2020. Only the second conductor to be laurelled the position in the orchestra's entire history and following the footsteps of the musically revered baton of Myung-whun Chung, there is a palpable air of excitement. Osmo Vänskä is no stranger to the ensemble, as he had already tested the waters with them four times. These outings, which presented a diverse repertoire palette in their staging of Sibelius - a composer the Finnish conductor knows inside out - Beethoven, Brahms, Nielsen, Hakola, Mahler, and Prokofiev, thus, turned out a litmus test. One can only assume that "positive" was the outcome, to a partnership that heralds many more hours of musical delights in the city that breakfasts close to 10 million each morning. 

I spoke with Osmo Vänskä a month before the announcement, at Harrison Parrott in Hammersmith, London. He had just flow in from Minneapolis and revealed he was jet-lagged, but with humour also told me that I should use his dented inhibitions to make him slip out answers. My happy interrogation lasted around 30 minutes, and we conversed with many moments of genuine laughter. During the chat, Osmo Vänskä and I talked about his method of learning scores, the so-called "Finnish" sound of his conducting, the national spirit of "Sisu" in Finland, the uncanny parallels between the histories of Korea and Finland, the relationship between black metal music and Finnish classical music, recording works multiple times, and his experience of being heckled during live performances. 

Below is a transcript of the interview. I have edited sections, yet when done so attempted with utmost care to preserve the content and flow of the actual conversation.

I.

Young-Jin Hur (YH): It’s a pleasure to meet you, Mo. Vänskä. As I’ve revealed earlier, my first concert in London took place back in 2011, when you conducted the London Philharmonic Orchestra. It is a strange feeling to talk to you in this new environment and new kind of relation. How’s your life been since 2011?

Osmo Vänskä (OV): Thanks for asking. That must have been the 2011-2012 season. That was an unusual time because there was an 18-month lockout at the Minnesota Orchestra, an orchestra where I have been musical director since 2003. It was a sad and critical time, so it is easy to say that after 2012, my life has been increasingly better because we solved that problem. As a musician and music director, I feel much better today than, let’s say, 6-7 years ago.

YH: You have arrived in London to conduct a concert on Friday. Since it is Wednesday today, will you have a bit of time for pleasure in the city, or will it be continuous rehearsals until the concert?

OV: There will only be four rehearsals for Friday’s concert, and during my so-called free time, I need to study some other pieces. I have to listen to one of our recordings and prepare comments for the first edit – in this case, it’s Mahler’s 4th symphony. And I have to study as much as possible Mahler’s 10th symphony, which I am going to conduct in Iceland next week. I also have to practice my clarinet. I had a vacation last week, and I did not take my instrument and scores with me. So today, after this interview and during the whole week, I will try to catch up.

(Note. Osmo Vänskä is currently completing a Mahler symphony cycle with the Minnesota Orchestra)

YH: Do you have much experience in conducting Mahler’s 10th symphony?

OV: I have conducted it several years ago, and now it comes twice in this season. There will be a recording after the two.

YH: And I presume you’ll be using the completed Cooke version?

OV: Yes it will be the Cooke version. That’s a big piece – lots of challenges… as always with Mahler!

YH: How do you study the piece?

OV: I explore different ways to interpret by listening to different conductors. I also refer to my own recording from when I conducted the work for the first time. I try to read, listen, and try to find a musical story written in the score. So it’s reading, listening, reading, listening, reading, listening, and thinking ... and thinking (both laugh).

YH: That sounds like an organic but systematic procedure.

OV: Yes.

II.

YH: Talking about your conducting itself, many people have called your style and sound as “Finnish.” [sic] What does this mean to you, and do you agree?

OV: I don’t know (both laugh). I don’t consciously try to create a “Finnish” sound. There is a lot of subjectivity here, although in some cases there can be something objective too. The important bit is that people know where I am from. They know that Finland is my home base. It’s easy to connect the idea of the “Finnish” sound to Sibelius because I’ve conducted much Sibelius - a composer whose music I love so much. This means many others have loved my Sibelius too. I think the stamp of “Finnish” sound comes from such background. I have to also say that sometimes after concerts when people bring their CDs to me for my autograph, they say things like, “thank you very much for the music, I saw so many lakes and forests.” And I say, “thank you.” What I don’t tell these people is that I don’t see any lakes and forests when I am conducting and thinking about music. That’s one of the great things about music – we are all allowed to have our own visions and experiences. Someone sees colours, someone sees lakes and forests, someone sees his/her own life story, happiness, tragedies… all those things are totally allowed. Everybody has the right to have their own experiences. No one can say something is wrong or right. I have my own thoughts about the music I am studying and conducting, but someone else is going to have different versions of thoughts, and that’s the right thing to happen.

YH: It is interesting you brought up something I was going to mention later. The late Sir Colin Davis, a great Sibelius conductor of the past few decades, did mention that he himself can see lakes and forests in the music of Sibelius. Although both of you are conductors and are even conducting the same Sibelius, you have such different experiences.

OV: Sir Colin Davis was a great conductor. He gave great Sibelius performances and recordings, and he was a great conductor for many other composers too. Sometimes I think there is an issue of definitions. When someone is listening to music, what does a lake and forest mean for that individual? Subjective associations of feelings, emotions, and experiences, are involved. That’s fine.

III.

YH: Going beyond Sibelius, there are numerous Finnish composers such as Madetoja, Kokkonen, Englund, Kuula, Klami, Merikanto, Melartin, and so on. As you have conducted many of these composers, what makes Finnish music unique? I apologise beforehand – this is a very unmusical question (both laugh)!

OV: Well I can continue the list with some younger composers. There is Kaija Saariaho, Kalevi Aho, Einojuhani Rautavaara, Magnus Lindberg, and many others.

YH: [Aulis] Sallinen, too!

OV: Yes! Music has been and still is very important for Finland’s cultural atmosphere, cultural background… whatever you want to call it. My answer to why classical music is important in Finland goes back to Sibelius. When Sibelius started his composing career, Finland was under Russian power. Sibelius was a national hero, not only for music lovers but for other people too. The population of Finland was around 4 million at the time. Sibelius gave an example that if you are successful, you have a position on an international level, if I may put it this way. This was a way for smaller countries to try to find and represent their identities. In this context, Sibelius gave very much this kind of self-confidence, that we can get our independence. From that time, classical music found its way as a central Finnish character. Sibelius gave an example, and since then people have followed - there have been numerous composers, conductors, singers, instrumentalists, and so on. I am very proud of this tradition of classical music. Let’s hope that Finland could be a music country in the future too.

YH: I hope so too. Given the rich history of music in Finland, I am not particularly worried about the future of Finland’s classical music tradition. You’ve mentioned the national identity of Finland, and indeed identity is a very Finnish problem because even before Soviet Russia, Finland was under Swedish rule for 700 years or so. So much of Finnish history is living under foreign control, and being conscious of its own identity. One idea that comes up from this unique historical makeup may be this idea of “Sisu.” I wonder if “Sisu” comes up when you conduct Finnish music?

OV: “Sisu” is this idea that if you want to do something, you don’t give up. Some people say that this is a depiction of Finnish stubbornness (both laugh), that you don’t change your mind and keep your integrity. Some even say that this was a term that high-level Swedish officials used, frustrated by the stubbornness of the Finns (both laugh). I don’t think this was a compliment, but I take it as a compliment. Yes, we have our opinions. “Sisu” is a great word, and there are many stories of how some sports heroes use it to achieve goals. But I cannot make any Romantic illusions about “Sisu” [in music].

YH: You’re right. This was a very, very Romantic question (both laugh), and I expected you to say what you’ve said. Still, I wanted to ask anyway. I personally feel close to Finland and their “Sisu”, because Korea – where I am from – has a similar history to Finland's. Both countries were surrounded by powerful national entities throughout history. In parallel, we have this idea of “Han”, which also be interpreted as a kind of national stubbornness, but one that arose from long years of hurt and regret. We also have this saying that it was not the Koreans who came up with it, but those who ruled over Korea. I think I can identify with the Finnish sentiment of "Sisu", as a Korean person.

OV: That’s so interesting because as we spoke when we first met today, I already spent two weeks this season with the Seoul Philharmonic Orchestra. I read a book some months ago [about Korea]… it was fiction, but based on events before and during the Second World War. I learned so many things about the Koreans, the Japanese, and the Chinese, and I thought exactly the same thing, that Korea and Finland have some similarities. Let’s say, Sweden is like Finland’s big brother, and we don’t like big brothers, because big brothers always tell us what to do (both laugh). And when you are a little brother, you want to show that you are as good as the big brother, or even better. I felt the same thing about Korea when I read that book, and I have been since thinking about [Korea’s] history. There are similarities between the two countries, I agree.

YH: I think so. I have met Finnish people in some of my travels, and we would talk about these things, usually until the early hours of the morning. I won’t say there was no alcohol involved (both laugh).

IV.

YH: Going beyond classical music, what Finland is also musically known for is black metal.

OV: Yes!

YH: Are you familiar with black metal?

OV: Very much so. I have a daughter and two sons, and the older of the two sons, Olli, is a member of a [black] metal band called Turisas. He plays the electric violin there, while covered up in artificial blood. They have been in many countries… and yes, metal music is very important in Finland. There are many people who ask why it is so - I don’t know. But I have listened to my son Olli’s band, not only in Finland but also in other countries too. Once, it so happened that I was conducting a concert in São Paulo, Brazil, the same day Olli was having one of his gigs there. Fortunately, my concert was around at 4 pm Saturday afternoon, so I had a chance to go to his gig. So there I had my earplugs on and I was “moving” [sic] with a thousand other people who came to see the band (both laugh). Sorry for my long answer to your question, but yes I know something about metal music (both laugh).

YH: Maybe it’s just me, but I often find that Finnish classical music pieces share some things with black metal. There seems to be a bleakness, almost a brutality in both genres of Finnish music. Do you also hear these similarities too?

OV: Well, if you want to put it that way, yes. If someone were to crudely categorise Finnish classical music, the music is no doubt very serious. While there is no such thing as typical Finnish music, if you think of some composers, you understand that Finnish music is not the happiest music in the world. I think happiness, let’s say in Sibelius’ music in this case, always comes through tears. Crying and happiness are very much connected in the music of Sibelius. Sometimes when I conduct Sibelius outside of Finland, I tell the orchestra that for Finnish people, happiness and tears are closely related and that I want to have this kind of touching, dark sound that has lots of tears, but which also has hope and something that makes life happy. Tears are very important, and if you want to have this kind of black metal darkness in Finnish classical music, then they are very much there.

YH: From a conductor’s perspective, how does it feel when a piece of music is so dark but also simultaneously joyful? The psychology of this phenomenon is almost contradictory since two opposing emotions are existing together.

OV: These pieces sound to me as very serious. Very seldom do we have in these pieces any fanfares or flags flying. In French music, you know that people are smiling, cheering, and are having a good time. That is not the happiness of Finnish music.

V.

YH: It goes without saying you are an experienced Sibelius conductor, and you’ve recorded the Sibelius symphony cycle twice, once with the Lahti Symphony Orchestra and more recently with the Minnesota Orchestra. What is your mindset when you go into a studio, knowing that it’s the second time recording the same works? 

OV: I try not to think about the fact that I am recording works for the second time. In any recording session, I try to concentrate on the music and focus on how to inspire musicians. It’s a very natural thing... if you have a chance to do something for the second time, then at least you are older (both laugh), you are more experienced... and it’s just like in life generally. If we do something more and more, then we can explore deeper things. It doesn’t mean that when you do something for the second time, it’s better - it’s just different.

YH: If we see how music critics describe some conductors who have recorded all seven Sibelius symphonies more than once, say, Paavo Berglund or Sir Colin Davis, there appears to be an opinion that after the first attempt, the music sounds less controlled. One could say the music sounds more “natural.” [sic] Would you say this about your second recording as well?

OV: Yes, I hope so (both laugh). I hope so... I hope so! This is what I mean, that when you are repeating something, you don’t want to copy. You want to dig deeper and deeper. And your life experiences become important too. With age, you know more about life, such as love and death, and these experiences will be reflected in the music that is being made. As a result, people might hear more colour.

YH: I see. Right, we’re slightly running out of time, I might have to skip some questions...

OV: My answers are too long!

YH: Oh no, I didn’t mean that - it is partially my fault too, as I got carried away a bit earlier out of excitement.

VI.

YH: Beyond Sibelius, you have acclaimed recordings and performances of, say, Beethoven and Bruckner symphonies. When it comes to Bruckner, Sibelius was one of the few “great” composers who admired Bruckner when the latter was still alive. For example, Sibelius even wanted to study under Bruckner, after he encountered Bruckner’s monumental 5th symphony. Unsurprisingly, some commentators note that both composers have in common this sense of elemental grandeur in their symphonies. When you conduct Bruckner symphonies, do you sense a bit of Sibelius in the music, or vice versa?

OV: Not really. I think that Bruckner was a unique composer. In his music, you can hear very often the organ - the instrument he was closest to. I don’t compare Sibelius against Bruckner, but I want to say that if you have some kind of faith in Bruckner’s music, then you always fall for his music. If you want to be very sceptical, then maybe Bruckner is not your music. It’s important to open up your mind towards his visions of awe and his experience of faith. Going through this process of hope, losing hope, hope, losing hope, and coming back to hope, is how I feel about Bruckner. Bruckner is a great composer who makes great music. But Bruckner is very much in his own musical world - he is difficult to be compared, ultimately... for me!

YH: I agree - I think Bruckner is very much in his own world. Talking of Bruckner, and linking back to what you’ve said earlier that 2011 was perhaps a difficult year for you, there was that famous incident at the Royal Festival Hall when you were heckled in the middle of a Bruckner performance. How do you remember the incident? If you do not feel comfortable about this question, we can skip it.

OV: No, no, that’s fine! I was very surprised when it happened. Maybe the guy was right - maybe the interpretation was so bad he just couldn’t stand it. But then we heard that he has a history. In any case, I think the middle of a concert is not the right place to show your emotions such as hatred. Equally, you cannot start cheering during a performance. We still need a piece in the end. If you think you can destroy other people’s experiences with your personal comments, something is wrong.

YH: I agree. I will finish with one final question. What is your philosophy of life and conducting?

OV: I think music is a great way to feel and to, hopefully, understand life... including love and threat. If you are in a position where you think you are going to lose something or if you have lost something, then music can give you hope. In one way, it’s a question about life and all kinds of emotions involved. I think music has something to do with healing. It could heal the lives of people who are listening and also the lives of performers. I have said this before - as long as there is life, Mozart is going to be there. Classical music is an important part of humanity. I don’t even want to think about life without music.

(Note. In fact, Osmo Vänskä is not the only person to talk about the hope-inspiring powers of music. For a similar discussion on the consoling powers of music, please read my interview with Philippe Herreweghe.  

For an in-depth discussion on the relationship between music and illness/health, please refer to my previously written article here.)

YH: I hope you can give such life-affirming and hope-giving performances in the future.

OV: Yes, I hope that (both laugh)!

YH: Thank you very much for your time.

OV: Thank you.

Osmo Vänskä, © Lisa-Marie Mazzucco

Young-Jin Hur

@yjhur1885