INTERVIEW | Sunwook Kim | "the essential beauty behind classical music comes from the fact that people gather at a concert hall to listen to music that can exist only in the moment of its performance. My existence is defined by such short moments"

In conversation with Sunwook Kim

Interviewed at Royal Festival Hall, London on 14 June 2018.

Sunwook Kim, © Marco Borggreve

There is always a musician behind a performance. Thus any musical expression has a personality behind its making. Naturally, to converse with a musician is to approximate a source of humanity lurking behind the realisation of musical notes. Yet before musicians are agencies of musical ideas, they are accomplished individuals with a vast range of skills, knowledge, and gifts in a specialized craft. In exchanging thoughts with such individuals, one not only learns of their musical language, but also the general language of ambition, motivation, and professionalism.

It was under these ideas that I chatted with the Korean pianist Sunwook Kim at the Royal Festival Hall, few hours before his performance with the Philharmonia Orchestra and Shi-Yeon Sung (review of the concert can be found here. My interview with Shiyeon Sung can be found here.). Underneath the measured tone of Kim’s voice was a distinct personality, both humble and practical, and rarely negative yet seldom without critical insights. In what turned out to be a long conversation full of colourful digressions, we talked of his plans to move to Berlin, the evolution of his musical style, the nature of musical appreciation, k-pop, the role of music in society, the beauty of dance, and of the evening’s performance.

Below is the transcript of our conversation kept in chronological order, translated from Korean. The content is left largely unabridged in attempt to maintain the spirit and flow of the actual conversation. If some inconsistencies are detectable, I take them as being an essential character of human conversation.

I.

Young-Jin Hur (YH): Thank you for making time. It’s almost exactly 10 years ago that you moved to London. I hear that you are thinking of moving to Berlin now. Can you give us a bit of background on this decision?

Sunwook Kim (SK): I think it has to do with a shift of culture. In the 60s and 70s the Beatles had their day in the UK. This fed into the growth of the UK’s music industry. Now, a similar thing is happening in Berlin, and people are moving there. Berlin is significantly cheaper to live than in London and in any other major European cities. There’s also a substantial community of musicians living in Berlin, not to mention the presence of world-class orchestras there. Yet it’s also about a certain authenticity that the Germans have toward classical music.

YH: What is this authenticity?

SK: If one understands music as a capital [in the UK], music is a necessity in Germany. This mentality is part of the liveliness of German concert halls. One can detect this way of musical life in the every day of Germany, be it through the people in the streets, through taxi drivers… it’s a general attitude.

YH: I graduated from a German high school 8 years ago. Then, it was very common for anyone interested in the arts to try to put a foot down in Berlin. Nowadays when I am in Berlin, I still feel that the atmosphere of Berlin is very different to that of London.

SK: Yes, the two capital cities are entirely different in this regard. If I may grossly generalize, things can be rather square in London. It’s an English way to do things, I think. Here, a sense of rigidity can be felt in how people approach social conventions or rules in general, how they dress, how they like to decorate restaurants, just to give some examples. London is a product of capitalism. London is also a place with a strict sense of social class. In London, there is a general set of expectations to dress and eat according to one’s social status. One’s lifestyle is further governed by the means of one’s financial capability. Things are quite different in Berlin. One doesn’t need much to get by with the necessities of life. In essence, people seem to have a different understanding of life quality.

YH: Could this so-called German lifestyle feed into the performance of musicians living there?

SK: I cannot say musicians get influenced directly. But once in such environment, one feels much better in general. For example, in terms of how much musicians get paid, the UK has the lowest pay in the world. As a musician living in London, the combination of low pay and high living cost is frustrating.

YH: Do you adapt well to different locations in the world?

SK: Yes. I enjoy travelling and am good at finding places.

YH: Of course, to live in a certain place is quite different from the ability to find places.

SK: About 90% of my friends live in Berlin, including both Koreans and non-Koreans. I guess this will help me adapt in Berlin.

YH: On a related note, I’ve read that Sir Simon Rattle will keep his house in Berlin, even after completely relocating to London this year. I guess the reasons behind his decision are not too different from the reasons you mentioned?

SK: I would imagine so. Berlin is a city where many musicians aspire to be. At the same time, it’s large enough to prevent musicians from bumping into each other. The closeness of international airports is another reason Berlin is well suited for musicians with busy schedules around the world.

YH: When you move to Germany, would you like to focus more on chamber music or orchestral music?

SK: I cannot say I have specific plans as such. Most likely I will play both. It’s inevitable.

Sunwook Kim, © Marco Borggreve

II.

YH: Generally speaking, how are the pieces you play at a concert selected?

SK: It depends on the context. For some concerts, it’s up to the soloist. In others, it’s left to the conductor to decide. There are also times when certain works are played because of special occasions. For example, works by Jewish composers are most likely to be played in, let’s say, a day celebrating Jewish culture.

YH: How was the Grieg concerto for tonight’s concert selected?

SK: Given the celebration of cultural exchange between the UK and Korea, we thought we’d play a work that could be appealing to a broad range of audience. I initially sent a list of concertos to Han-Na Chang (Note: Han-Na Chang fell ill shortly before the scheduled concert and was subsequently replaced by Shi-Yeon Sung), and we agreed to play the Grieg concerto.

YH: I thought it was an interesting choice because you are primarily known as a Beethoven interpreter.

SK: Some musicians like to stick to a very small repertoire and rarely play anything that goes beyond their comfort zone. Some, on the other hand, enjoy playing whatever is new to them. I am at a stage where it’s difficult to significantly increase my repertoire and masterworks new to me. In the past, however, I used to play as many concerts and pieces as possible instead of focusing on Beethoven and Brahms. For my London debut back in 2007, I played Rachmaninov’s Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini. With the LPO, I played Mozart’s 24th, Prokofiev’s 2nd, and the Schumann’s A minor piano concertos, for example. Nowadays, I don’t think I have a specific repertoire in mind when I play.

YH: Is there a composer you feel especially attracted to? I can imagine that after many years of playing a wide range of music, preferences could naturally develop.

SK: I have never thought in such ways before. One can, for example, never say Brahms and Beethoven are superior to others. The Brahms and Beethoven concertos are quite popular and I’ve played them often, and every time I play those works I try to add new perspectives. It’s a way to add value to a given work. I think this is the joy that comes from performing works that one plays often.

YH: How self-aware are you when you re-interpret works? As someone who collects recordings, I notice there are so-called early and late styles of musicians. As you play for 10 or so years in London, do you see yourself changing in a certain coherent manner?

SK: Absolutely. When I was young, I always wanted to focus on the inherent value each piece presents.

YH: What do you mean by ‘inherent value’?

SK: It will depend on the performer. After all, interpretations are subjective. Whatever I do, say, play Beethoven, amounts to a subjective interpretation of Beethoven’s original thoughts. Still, when I was young, I wanted to get as much Beethoven as possible. So I would dig into the literature, understand the nature of, for example, tempo marks in Beethoven’s time, and how Beethoven would have seen them. There was a focus on ‘objectivity.’ Now I can say that everyone has their own style. With time, we accumulate experience over certain pieces. And even if our fundamental view of a work does not change, we realise the importance of finding one’s own subjective view of these pieces, and this is no easy job.

YH: Where does this subjective style come from? From hard work and research? From an unconsciously projecting personality?

SK: I would say the latter. Once one has studied a piece enough by playing it, the finding of an individual voice becomes increasingly important. As different people play the same piece, we cannot expect everyone to play the piece the same way. At one point, one must focus on what new things an individual soloist can bring. All this is rather abstract.

YH: Perhaps this is not surprising. As a music enthusiast, an outsider, these questions always remained as an abstract inquiry for me, so I wanted a practical understanding of how these things work, coming from someone in direct touch with the music.

Anyway, listening to your view of interpretation made me think of an episode by Herbert von Karajan. In an interview, he once responded to music critics’ criticism of his music being too objective. He said that music-making is like the touching of snow. Once anyone touches snow, snow will melt, depending on the person’s own shape, temperature, etc. of his hands. In the metaphor, snow represents musical notes, and the touching of the snow, the making of music. Once we handle the notes, there’s no such thing as pure objectivity anymore.

SK: When I was young, I played every performance as if my life depended on it. During my London debut, I thought, “I really have to do well in this one performance”. I sought perfection. It’s not so nowadays. Maybe I can attribute this to my change of style, I don’t know. In any case, in my performance later in the evening, I will seize the moment and play music that will exist in the given moment and space.

YH: Music that will ‘only’ exist in that moment?

SK: Absolutely. If I can fully express myself in a given time, I would wish for no more. Of course, it was very difficult to reach this point. In the end, I think it’s about freeing myself from being different to others. As a creator, it’s about what I can and want to express.

YH: I agree. I can also venture to guess that this principle applies to life in general, beyond music. When we are young, we tend to be too aware of what others may think of our behaviour. I find that young people, in general, can be over-analytical too. Only with age do we start to see the forest, as it were.

SK: Yes, I agree.

III.

YH: As I was conceiving today’s interview, I thought of talking with you about topics not directly related to classical music. I think as a Korean musician living in London, it’s inevitable that one encounters issues of K-pop.

SK: Why would you say it is inevitable?

YH: When I mention to strangers in London of myself being Korean and being passionate about music, I am often asked of k-pop. So I wanted to ask you whether you listen to this kind of music, and what you think of it.

SK: (laughter) Ah, that’s odd. When I was a student here between 2010 and 2013, I was rarely asked about k-pop. Of course, there were some friends who shared k-pop videos with me once in a while, but I cannot say this was frequent. In any case, I am afraid I don’t listen to k-pop much. Maybe it’s because I am usually surrounded by people who are related to classical music. Ultimately, I don’t think it’s the case that these people including myself dislike k-pop. Rather, we dig ourselves so deeply into classical music such that we don’t have time to discover much [of k-pop].

YH: One can say I brought up this question concerning k-pop because it’s stimulating and refreshing. But there is also a deeper side to it. I once met this Korean classical music composer in Cambridge whose musical pastime consisted entirely of k-pop. In fact, he made efforts to distance himself from listening to classical music altogether. What do you make of this?

SK: I fell in love with classical music from a young age. Other genres of music rarely touched me as much as classical music did. However, I sometimes listen to jazz with a bit of alcohol.

YH: What kind of jazz do you enjoy?

SK: I listen to all sorts, really. Keith Jarrett once had a recital here, and that was a wonderful performance.

YH: So you are accustomed to the more contemporary side of jazz. Does ECM ring a bell?

(Note. Keith Jarrett is a key exponent of this Munich-based record label)

SK: ECM was how I initially came into contact with jazz.

YH: (laughter) It was exactly how I got myself into jazz too!

SK: People used to tell me that ECM isn’t ‘real’ jazz (laughter). So I took up some recommendations to listen to other genres within jazz, to listen to the ‘real’ stuff. I cannot say I am literate in jazz, but as someone who never ‘consumes’ music, the idea that I understand and digest music just through the ears solely is somewhat new to me. Maybe this is why I cannot feel too interested in genres apart from classical music.

YH: So in that sense, you have indeed dug a single well (Note: a Korean phrase to denote a single-minded mastery of an action/belief) in classical music.

SK: Yes. When one listens to music in a restaurant, for example, one is consuming music. As someone who’s played music from a young age, this way of approach to music has always been slightly uncomfortable for me. While one can listen to classical music through a CD, the essential beauty behind classical music comes from the fact that people gather at a concert hall to listen to music that can exist only in the moment of its performance. My existence is defined by such short moments (laughter). If we listen to music purely through CDs… and I am hesitant to use the metaphor of life and death here… I think this way of listening offers much less in terms of music’s true power to move.

YH: As a classical music enthusiast, I have a substantial collection of classical music. Do you have a particular opinion toward these people perhaps? (laughter)

SK: Oh no, no (embarrassed laughter). I collect CDs myself. I am not suggesting that one is better than the other. As a person who plays live music, I simply wish more people can feel the unique thrill of a concert hall. Musicians like myself spend endless hours practising for such occasions, for a moment that will never return, and I would like to share this with many others.

YH: I would like to return to the notion of music ‘consumption’ you mentioned earlier. Are you also suggesting that music should be appreciated as it is, rather than as a means for something else?

SK: I think my opinions are biased in a way since I am a professional musician. If I hadn’t played music, I would have equally judged music based purely on the ears and ‘consumed’ it, as it were.

IV.

YH: Many authors and philosophers often link music with societal issues. One common narrative, for example, is the notion that one can solve political issues through music. I think it’s a very popular way to think too. As someone who plays music, specifically as someone who believes in the transient qualities of music within the temporal-spatial confines of a concert hall, do you think there is any validity in this viewpoint?

SK: I don’t think the degree to which music can help society or political situations is that significant. Music cannot directly change the quality of one’s life, nor can it change the way one thinks. What are essential to life are clothes and food, not music. We are talking of the absolute essence in life. Because of clothes and food, we have politics. I thus see the economy, thus activities related to buying and selling, as the most important elements to a good life. Already when one opens the newspaper, we can see what people find most important. First comes politics, where people are hopeful for a better life through their votes. Then come the economic and societal issues, before we reach the sports section. The sports section is where people can relinquish themselves of their daily stress. In the end, topics of music, the arts, and literature are at the very last pages, if they make it in regular newspapers at all – not being sidelined to special columns, for example. I, therefore, cannot say music is essential to life, at least there won’t be a directly link.

That being said, music has always been there in society. While music is not essential to life, I think it helps in finding a balance in life. This is what may make music an essential element in life.

YH: I am with you on this. No society is without the arts or music.

SK: But if one doesn’t make the effort to discover music, music will never be understood nor known.

YH: It is fascinating that in the times of hunters and gatherers, and currently in small tribes around the world, even without them having a developed society nor an advanced lexical system, music is always present. There seems to be an instinct for music.

SK: I’ve always believed the arts offer to us that which go beyond logic and language. Of the arts, music has the most prominent role in this respect. For example, imagine going for a walk to calm yourself down, then noticing the absence of the sounds of birds and water. It’s hard to imagine how strange this would be.

YH: Still, to notice nature and to notice the beauty in nature through its sounds are two different things.

SK: It’s important to understand that music was first created when composers wanted to preserve and recreate the sounds of nature. They also used music as a means to cure.

YH: I suppose we may now be tapping into Aristoteles’ notion of catharsis, the idea that art can heal. I suppose that’s for a different time (both laugh).

Talking of ideas, I am currently undertaking a psychology PhD in the psychology of aesthetics. An oft-discussed topic is the necessity of art. As you mentioned earlier, art does not seem to have a direct relationship with the immediate needs for survival, compared to activities such as sleeping, eating, and so on. Even then, art exists in any form of society, small or large, developed or lesser developed, now or in the past.

SK: Yes, it is indeed fascinating.

YH: There seem to be two main arguments as to why art exists. The first derives from the idea that art is essentially social, such that art is a crucial means of bringing people together. In terms of music, this relates to one of the earliest forms of music, namely religious music. Here, music is functional in a social sense. By making different people sing together, people feel they are part of a community. The sense of community, in turn, helps people to survival in harsh environments. In such a viewpoint, art is an integral survival mechanism. The other of the two arguments, on the other hand, plays down such socio-functional side of art. Here, art is seen as a human instinct, like our linguistic ability. Like language, human’s artistic instincts develop regardless of the social contexts or societal demands, by and on its own. People believing in ‘art of art’s sake’ often find themselves in this latter group.

(Note. The essence of what I was getting at is the division between art existing because of a social need or because of a biological instinct. Whether the need for art is rooted socially or biologically, however, art is likely to foster survival indirectly. For example, the instinct for language, the example mentioned above as a behaviour rooted in biological instincts, enables communication. What is so deeply rooted in our genes, in fact, will be likely linked with survival.)

SK: It is also true that art stimulates people’s imaginations. Through art, people dream of a better world, and by having a glimpse of something that goes beyond reality, they are able to enrich the present. I wonder if this act of dreaming is also a necessity of survival. Without art, I have no doubt that life would be barren and dry.

V.

YH: Is there a form of art that you feel particularly close to, beyond music?

SK: I don’t think I ever felt too close to language-related things. I enjoyed looking at people dancing. Even to this day, I love going to the ballet. Ballet, for me, is the ultimate form of art (laughter), at least the most beautiful thing a human body can express. Many have said that the human voice is the most beautiful thing coming from the human body, but it doesn’t stand a chance to ballet.

YH: I find a parallel to the famous quote, “architecture is frozen music.” If we are talking of art that has form without content, I don’t think we can leave ballet out. In encountering dance, I could never escape from the thought that the human body becomes a work of architecture. There is a purity of form in these two art forms, and it is this form we solely admire. Yet no words would describe these phenomena in satisfactory ways.

SK: The relation between ballet and sports is also interesting, as both have many similarities such as the requirement for perfect technique. Still, many people used to say figure skating is art, not a sport. It’s not about who is fast and who is slow, but about the subjective evaluation of what a body is expressing. In the case of ballet, while immense degrees of discipline and technique are required, a great performance has much to do with how much spontaneity and personality is balanced against the rigid rules of physical requirements.

When looking at ballet performances, I also imagine how much work and challenges the performers must have gone through to reach that level of execution. There is also the idea that the human body will never regain the grace of its youth. These ideas make a ballet performance beautiful.

YH: That’s a beautiful thought. It’s a beauty that derives from transience. Despite the performers knowing of their decline and their own limitations, they try to make the most out of the unique occasion of the performance. Really beautiful. If I may digress a bit, I remember Stravinsky saying something on the lines of greater limitation creating greater creativity and beauty.

SK: Another important element is the choreography, how the dance goes well with the music, and so on. Naturally, this will be applicable to both the opera and the ballet. Comparatively, concert pieces are somewhat two-dimensional.

YH: Well, the beauty of concerts perhaps root from its simplicity, thus limitations! (laughter)

SK: Yet overall I can say I enjoy most art forms, including the opera. I feel sympathy for many artists in these various genres, and by looking at them I get a sense of who I am in return. I can admit nowadays that I am a bit of a nerd. I have lived only one kind of life, and I cannot imagine living a life that is different to this one.

VI.

YH: I would like to ask a final few questions about tonight’s concert before I let you go. I apologize for keeping you so long.

Conductor Han-Na Chang pulled out last minute due to illness and is replayed by the Shi-Yeon Sung. When I listened to some works by both conductors online before coming here, I felt that they had different approaches. Could this be a cause of concern for tonight’s performance?

SK: Every musician is bound to have his/her own style of music-making. Had Sung come in during the middle of Chang’s rehearsal schedule, that could have been problematic. Luckily, that is not the case for us, as Chang was replaced without her having gone through a single rehearsal session. There are many variables that come into play when it comes to interpretations. I don’t think the Philharmonia Orchestra played the Grieg concerto in recent times. This means that they will be entering the rehearsal with a fresh mindset. Music-making is an organic procedure. If the orchestra had played the same piece last week with a different soloist, the orchestra would be geared in a way that would suit the former soloist. That inertia would make the new soloist difficult to be integrated with the orchestra and conductor.

YH: What can we expect from tonight’s performance?

SK: The Philharmonia Orchestra is a superb orchestra, with great flexibility and sharpness. They are also great in understanding the intentions of the soloist. They can go from one colour to another with minimum effort. I look forward to playing with them.

YH: I look forward to the concert too. Thank you.

Sunwook Kim, © Marco Borggreve

My review of Sunwook Kim's concert with the Philharmonia Orchestra in the evening of the interview can be found here. My interview with Shiyeon Sung can be found here.

Young-Jin Hur

@yjhur1885