INTERVIEW | Thomas Søndergård | "The most important role of a conductor is to listen carefully"
In conversation with Thomas Søndergård
Interviewed in London on 5 November 2019.
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| Thomas Søndergård, © Martin Bubandt |
"There is still plenty of good music to be written in C major'' are the words of composer Arnold Schoenberg in 1940, having escaped war-torn Europe. Triumphant and optimistic C major may be, in the context of a century of brutality and doubt, the key feels out of place. Yet joy is most longed for in times of turbulence. One, therefore, wonders if Schoenberg’s prophecy represents an emotional yearning as much as a purely musical outlook. In the silence that follows the unambiguously assuring C major endings of Mahler’s and Sibelius’s 7th symphonies, two 20th-century masterpieces that preface World War I and World War II respectively, a beautiful strangeness takes hold.
To stage both Mahler's and Sibelius's 7th symphonies in a single evening is no easy feat, for they slowly and progressively carve out the fateful C major through their own sweat and tears. This was the task given to Mr Thomas Søndergård, music director of the Royal Scottish National Orchestra, where he was asked to lead the Guildhall Symphony Orchestra in both works.
I met Mr Søndergård in a dressing room at the Guildhall School of Music and Drama, following a 7-hour rehearsal. From the moment we started talking to the time Mr Søndergård said, “well, that was straightforward” when I stopped recording, the allocated 30 minutes eased by effortlessly. Mr Søndergård spoke in a calm tone, always addressing my questions with sincerity, respect, and insight. We spoke about the responsibilities of being a music director, the difficulties and joys of rehearsing a student orchestra, the music of Mahler, Sibelius, and Nielsen, Mr Søndergård’s upcoming tour in Korea, the difficulties of rehearsing in Danish, on meeting an orchestra for the first time, and about Mr Søndergård’s own musical interests.
Below is a transcript of the conversation. I have attempted with utmost care to represent the personality of Mr Søndergård and to retain the flow and spirit of the entire conversation.
I.
Young-Jin Hur (YH): Mr Thomas Søndergård, it’s wonderful to have you as a guest.
Thomas Søndergård (TS): Thank you.
YH: How are you today?
TS: Well, it’s been an exhausting day. We rehearsed from ten to five on quite substantial repertoire, Mahler’s 7th and Sibelius’s 7th symphonies.
YH: Before we get into what you will play on Thursday… so much has happened over the past couple of years. You are in the second season as music director of the Royal Scottish National Orchestra. How has life been since the appointment?
TS: With that title, there’s more responsibility, no doubt. I am happy with that. As music director, I have to embrace an ensemble I have now known for 10 years, in a different way. And that covers everything from doing rehearsals to engaging with how the orchestra actually functions. I go into more meetings, and I spend more time generally supporting the orchestra. I also try to get to know all the donors. So it’s a really embracing job, which I love. I am also involved in scheduling repertoire that I am not doing myself. It’s all very exciting.
YH: How is the repertoire of your orchestra decided?
TS: Well, I know pieces that some guests play well. There are also pieces I know I would love to play with the orchestra. There are pieces that I know would be good for the orchestra and myself at this stage of our journey. But there are also pieces that we have to be careful not to repeat too often. So it’s a mixture of so many things. Guest conductors also may have specific wishes. I want to make sure that the programmes surrounding those concerts make sense. For example, I wouldn’t want to make schedules that may be too exhausting for the orchestra. It would not be ideal if there are massive works right next to each other.
YH: That sounds like a lot of responsibility and planning.
TS: It is. It is very different from being a guest conductor or even a principal guest conductor of an orchestra. In these cases, you just enter a door [and rehearse] without having much responsibility. Musically speaking, having a title as music director means that I feel I am much more responsible than usual for a long-term sound with my orchestra. Therefore, finding the right sound balance and the right intonation becomes a major rehearsal subject nowadays.
YH: I am not a musician myself, so this all sounds incredible. It really sounds like you are nurturing a family of a sort.
TS: Yes.
II.
YH: Since Sunday, you are down in London and are preparing for a concert that is to take place on Thursday. As you have mentioned at the start of the interview, you are preparing two heavy works, Mahler’s 7th and Sibelius’s 7th symphonies. How is it like to rehearse such pieces with a student orchestra such as the Guildhall Symphony Orchestra?
TS: Much of the rehearsal depends on what comes from the musicians. You only discover these when you meet an ensemble. And that’s why I love to work with the Guildhall Symphony Orchestra, the orchestra I will guest conduct on Thursday. If lucky, one or two of the musicians would have played these symphonies before. So they approach these pieces in a different way than how an experienced orchestra would. For instance, students are often taught much about technical things, because they need a lot of technical adjustments. So when they come together to play works like the Mahler and Sibelius symphonies, it is important, for me, to find a balance between talking about technical demands to make the orchestra really function and discussing things apart from the technical aspects. There are places where I just have to skip to focus more on, say, emotional things. To go beyond the technical focus the students are used to, and to concentrate more on the character of music is really exciting for me. This is very different when I rehearse with established musicians. In this case, the technical skills are there, and the musicians would have likely played the pieces many times before. So unlike a student orchestra, established musicians perhaps wait for emotional challenges or excitement.
YH: So when rehearsing with the Guildhall Symphony Orchestra, you have to be selective in terms of where to focus on and where not to focus on in a rehearsal. Can we talk about some examples in the Mahler and Sibelius symphonies you have just rehearsed? I am curious about which sections you would have thought were technically important and which sections were more emotionally important?
TS: I cannot give you examples. The only possible way for you to understand these details would be to be present in the rehearsals themselves. It depends so much on the context. There may be places in the score that looks very tricky, but maybe because of the technical difficulty, the students may have rehearsed those bits a lot before they arrived at the rehearsals. So things that I thought would be a problem is not necessarily a problem. It is so different from ensemble to ensemble.
YH: Rehearsing is a very organic process!
TS: It is. So that’s also part of the excitement of being a conductor. You cannot predict how the rehearsal is going to turn out. The only thing you can actually be quite certain about is that the first rehearsals anywhere are different to the second, third, and fourth rehearsals.
YH: Can you elaborate on this last bit?
TS: We all need to meet and get to know each other in the first few hours. That’s audible in the first rehearsal. People need to also read the music once again and remind themselves of how the pieces go. And they need time to figure out what the conductor generally wants. It’s a dialectic rather than a one-way process.
III.
YH: Coming back to Mahler and Sibelius, these are two composers you played quite often. You currently have a Mahler cycle happening up in Scotland at the moment with your Royal Scottish National Orchestra.
TS: Yes, yes.
YH: You have conducted Sibelius so many times. Often in the media, perhaps based on what actually happened, Mahler and Sibelius are portrayed as composers of opposite tendencies. There is a famous anecdote where Mahler and Sibelius had a conversation once about the nature of a symphony. Sibelius said he likes “the profound logic and inner connection” of a symphony, and Mahler supposedly said that he disagrees entirely, stating that a symphony must be “like the world.” As a performer, how opposite are the symphonies of Mahler and Sibelius to you? Are they really opposites to each other?
TS: It’s difficult to say. I am sure both composers thought their music reflected [the world]. It also depends on what you mean by “the world” in Mahler’s quote. Does he mean how it feels to be human in this world? Does he mean how we actually experience the world? Does he mean how the world looks like? I am not too sure what he means. If you look at the first pages of the first symphony, for example, he writes this really long chord as if that should be coming straight from nature. Again, what does he mean there? I’d like to think that Mahler’s music portrays the DNA of what we are and what we are surrounded by. He tried to recreate the world in his music. So in this sense, you might say, Mahler’s music must be like the world.
When I listen to or study Sibelius’s music, it’s not the same. It’s not like in Mahler’s music, where I hear everyday events around me in a quick succession. A nearby military march suddenly switches to something beautiful, a human, or a detail in nature. Mahler is about finding passion and love through the world around us. When you look at a beautiful human and suddenly stop looking, everything becomes emotional. The next thing you know, you’re back in a traffic jam. Things move around quickly, and so does our mind. So if that’s what Mahler means to be in this world, then I agree. Or that could be part of what he means.
YH: That’s a wonderful thing to say. If I think of Sibelius, it feels like he’s painting a scene and he is really focusing on that single scene.
TS: Yes.
YH: And you say that Mahler goes from nature to traffic jam, from love to whatever else is within us.
TS: Mahler can paint the same thing over and over again, but he says wait a minute, you never rest in beauty for too long. In Mahler’s music, you are always distracted. As I said before, there’s a military march around the corner, then comes something comical, then, maybe a yodel (TS imitates a yodel).
(both laugh)
Anything that nature presents is very much a structure [in a Mahler symphony]. And I think it is good to know he said this because it makes you think you can go to extremes in his music.
What really differentiates the two gentlemen, though, is that Mahler was an excellent conductor. I don’t know how many times it has happened to me that when I perform Mahler’s music, I request things from certain sections without looking at the score. But when I look at the score, he actually tells me, “no, don’t do that” by simply writing, for example, sempre pianissimo. “Don’t play this phrase louder. It’s tempting, but don’t do it.”
YH: That’s very helpful for a conductor, in a way.
TS: Yes. He knows there is a tendency for musicians or, in this case, conductors to play certain phrases louder. And he is very aware of that.
YH: Compared to that, is Sibelius not as helpful as Mahler to conductors?
TS: Oh no, he is not as attentive as Mahler.
IV.
TS: If I may digress a bit, this actually reminds me much of Carl Nielsen’s music, where you often have to correct some of the dynamics in the score... not to make the piece work but to introduce a certain musical clarity. Nielsen sometimes has a tendency to write fortissimo right throughout the score. You have to find out if you really want that, or if there should be some instruments that should play slightly softer. Mind you, the expressions themselves are clear. The composer wants a fortissimo from the whole band.
YH: I was meant to ask you some questions about Nielsen anyway. I feel terrible for saying this, but do you think this need to meddle with scores happens because Nielsen did not know the orchestra too well, as much as Mahler did?
TS: Oh no, Nielsen certainly did know the orchestra well. He played in the orchestra I played in for many years, the Royal Danish Orchestra. So he was very aware of what musicians would do. But I think this comes from a slightly old tradition where musicians would read a fortissimo and they would still wait and think, “am I the leading voice or not?” You find it a lot in older music.
It’s really that Mahler is the exception there. Mahler knows exactly what he wants. There could be a phrase, like in his 7th symphony, where the viola parts read a clear fortissimo, but he wants a crescendo within that melody. The way he does it is that he asks the second violins to enter the second bar with the exact same music, but they begin piano whereas the violas are already up there singing in a fortissimo. That is a great orchestral innovation. In traditional cases, if the violas are already in fortissimo, the second violins also start in fortissimo. But Mahler wants the sound to emerge. In effect, he increases the sound whilst still having a sense of a crescendo. Not many composers write like this.
YH: Mahler’s experimented a lot with the texture of sounds. The Second Viennese composers like Schoenberg were obsessed with Mahler, and one can almost say that the idea of Klangfarbenmelodie was experimented by Mahler (TS nods).
How did you first come to Nielsen, and what makes conducting Nielsen unique?
TS: It’s been a journey for me with Carl Nielsen. The first time I got to know his music was through the opera, Maskarade. That’s a very charming opera. By the time I entered the Royal Danish Orchestra, the piece was standard repertoire. This means that the orchestra already knew through experience that when it says fortissimo in some parts of the score, this doesn’t mean to necessarily play parts too loud. When I started to conduct Nielsen myself I realised how much extra work I needed to do with the symphonies. When actually meeting an orchestra that has hardly done any Nielsen, you really need to make sure that you know your piece before you arrive. You need to correct a few things in parts to make the symphony work. Now, this is really exciting and is a great exercise for a conductor. There’s nothing really wrong with the score, but it’s an old fashioned way of writing music.
YH: Talking about Nielsen, I understand you are visiting Korea, and you are playing Nielsen’s Helios Overture with the Royal Danish Orchestra.
TS: Yes.
YH: When it comes to performing Nielsen in Korea, Korean audiences may not be too accustomed to the music of Nielsen. Does this worry you by any chance?
TS: No it doesn’t. I hope that the Korean audiences will be open for new composers that they haven’t heard much in live concerts before. It could have been hard if we played several [of Nielsen’s] symphonies. But we are playing a short piece.
YH: What are your general expectations of visiting Korea?
TS: I really look forward to seeing that part of the world. I’ve never been to Korea. I’ve been to China, which is of course not the same. I’ve heard that there’s fantastic food in Korea. I am a great food lover. My partner and I can easily travel long distances for the pleasure of great food. My partner and I also enjoy exploring seasides around the world… not for lying on the beach though. We are different to the popular way of enjoying summer beaches. Wintertime is our high season. In fact, I love entering cold waters after saunas. That’s one of my absolute favourite things to do.
YH: I know that going into cold water after the sauna is a big Finnish thing. Is it a thing in Denmark too?
TS: Not really. But you’re right. When I was in Helsinki this January, I was told that there are more saunas in Finland than there are people.
(both laugh)
TS: It’s something I can recommend people to do.
YH: Or maybe you have worked with Sibelius’s music too much
TS: Maybe.
(both laugh)
YH: After the interview, I am more than happy to send you a list of Korean restaurants you can try. I think food is a wonderful way to understand a culture generally, and Korean culture for sure.
(Note. It comes as a half regret that I did not mention that Korea also has its own sauna culture. Unlike the Finnish tradition, Korean saunas are indoors. But the practice of entering cold water following a hot sauna (or vice versa; or hot water) is very much a tradition in Korea. I suspect my mind automatically decided to forgo these comments, given our limited time and given that I had prepared a few more questions I wanted to ask.)
V.
YH: Talking of culture in general, when you conduct a Danish orchestra such as the Royal Danish Orchestra, is it easier to rehearse in Danish and with Danish people?
TS: (very quickly) No. Rehearsing in Danish is unusual for me, and I conduct Danish orchestras once or twice per season. English is the usual language I rehearse in. Because I speak so much English, it is actually quite difficult for me to find the right words to describe what I want to say in Danish, my own language. When I am in rehearsals, it is not the same as walking down the street or being at home. I am required to use a unique set of words. So I find myself speaking Italian to Danish people.
(both laugh)
TS: I avoid long sentences but use musical terms often in Italian.
YH: So would you say you even speak less with Danish orchestras?
TS: Yes. It’s terrible. I should be much better at it.
(both laugh)
TS: I don’t want to focus on language-related thing in rehearsals. It is the same when I am in Germany. I do speak German, but I do not want rehearsals to be a language exercise for me, and for the orchestra to sit and wait for me to express myself in their language. So it is much better that I say what I want to say quickly. If I can find the right expression in Danish or German, that’s fine. If not, I just move on.
YH: You seem to be comfortable when you rehearse in English. This is not surprising. You filled in positions in short notice at the BBC National Orchestra of Wales and the Royal Scottish National Orchestra, which soon led to you becoming their chiefs. How do you go to an orchestra in short notice and give them a strong impression?
TS: Well, the best way to answer that is to say that you have to focus on the right things. Specifically, you have to concentrate on the fact that you are there to work with the music and the musicians. If something beautiful happens, it happens. If the focus is to impress and to say, “oh this orchestra is looking for a principal conductor” or if the focus is on anything away from the music, I’ve always found that not good.
This thought comes from a specific experience, specifically from 2005. I was an assistant conductor [at the Royal Danish Orchestra] under Michael Schønwandt, a wonderful conductor. During one production, he asked me to assist him before he asked me to take over the production entirely. Now that was with the orchestra I used to play in for over 10 years. So imagine the day I had to run the first orchestral rehearsal, standing in front of all my colleagues. I could have focused on the fact that I am suddenly guiding my friends. I could have questioned myself too. “Do I have the experience or gravity?” All these thoughts are important in some ways, but if you think too much about these things, you can easily become too nervous. So my major focus was to guide the score that I knew so well and I had a clear rehearsal plan from Monday to Thursday. Because I was purely focused on music, I was not nervous. That was a good exercise for me, and that really answers your question. If I step in any orchestra in the world the first time, of course, it is exciting to see how a relationship is going to develop. But the major thing is to focus on the job. That job is the music itself.
(Note. The 2005 production Mr Søndergård is referring to is most likely Poul Ruders's opera, Kafka's Trial. The live performance was subsequently released publicly - see below for a clip of the performance.)
YH: I know that you have recently made your debut with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, and you will soon make your debut with the Cleveland Orchestra. All these orchestras have personalities. When you conduct an orchestra for the first time, how do you balance between what you want to change versus what you want to keep as the orchestra's unique personality?
TS: That’s a very good question. Sometimes it takes a little while to decide (TS smiles). It’s a decision between changing what’s there and, if the orchestra sounds nice, accepting that there are different ways of doing things. It can be anything from a small rallentando to more extreme things. I think the important question is to ask whether a sound fits the way I think about a composer. These considerations are different from orchestra to orchestra. For the students here this week, it’s very different. I am curious how the students read music from the paper, especially since the pieces are so new to them. But for the experienced Chicago and Cleveland, they may want to be reminded of how a piece goes. I may bring some interesting things. What is important is to capture what is needed in the moment. The older I get, the more I realise the importance of the ears. It’s not about how I talk, how I look, what I show, and what I do not show. The most important role of a conductor is to listen carefully and to quickly decide what is needed. This way, you can also save a lot of time in rehearsals.
YH: I will ask one more question. When I look at your repertoire in general over the next few months, you play Tchaikovsky, Beethoven, Verdi, and Richard Strauss. You also bring a very Romantic programme to Korea, where you will play Mussorgsky and Rachmaninov. These are very hot and Romantic composers. Do you think this tells something about your personality? Are you, let’s say, an emotionally intense or Romantic person?
(both laugh)
TS: Oh… yes I am, in many ways. These pieces are passionate indeed, and they can be overwhelming. The same can be said about the pieces we rehearsed today for 7 hours. Romantic composers like Sibelius and Mahler can be really exhausting. If someone told me, “we won’t play Mahler tomorrow. We’ll do a Haydn symphony instead”, that would also be really nice (TS laughs). But then again, I think this all fits into how I discovered music in the first place. There was a strong Romantic link in my musical interests.
I did not start with Bach or Mozart. In fact, when I was a kid, I thought these two composers were incredibly boring. Now I absolutely adore them. Mozart, I would conduct anytime, but Bach, I only listen to. I might start working with his music later on. Having said this, in those rare times I come home and play music, most of the time I play Bach... or jazz. There are certain pieces I love to listen to when I want to relax. There are some pieces by Fauré, some by Sibelius, and some by Nielsen. I would listen to these pieces for a little bit and then leave them again. But my main enthusiasm in classical music started in a very Romantic corner.
YH: That’s a fantastic answer. When the students follow your guidance over the next few days, I hope they can feel your passion. The audiences would love this too, no doubt. With this, I will conclude the interview.
TS: Thank you.
YH: Thank you very much.
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| Thomas Søndergård, © Andy Buchanan |
Young-Jin Hur
@yjhur1885