INTERVIEW | Daniel Lozakovich | "I have learnt everything from Bach"
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| Daniel Lozakovich, © Johan Sandberg |
I.
Young-Jin Hur (YH): Good afternoon.
Daniel Lozakovich (DL): Good afternoon.
YH: It's a pleasure to meet you. How are you?
DL: It's a pleasure to meet you, too. I am good, thank you. Is everything well with you?
YH: Yes. Things have been fine with me. Christmas and the New Year have just gone by, and I had a relaxing winter break. How did you celebrate your New Year?
DL: I was with my family in Stockholm. It was an intimate celebration with a small number of people. It was nice and I needed to spend some family time.
YH: That's very good. Did you also have a chance to meet some friends?
DL: Yes, yes. I met some old friends here in Sweden - I went to school with them from when I was six.
YH: Do you have any New Year's resolutions for this year? Or do you not think of these things?
DL: Yes, I do. They are just about what I have to read, practice, or generally learn.
YH: That's interesting. We're going to talk about music later anyway, so... what are you reading currently?
DL: Well, now I am reading My Sister, Life by Boris Pasternak. It's an incredible book. And then I just finished Metaphysics by Aristotle. I love reading in general.
YH: What a coincidence. I was thinking of buying Aristotle's Metaphysics just a couple of months ago.
DL: Oh, wow!
YH: I hear it's not a very easy text to read.
DL: No, it's not an easy book. To understand it, you have to read between the lines and think about every sentence you read. It's a deep book about the inner life and the soul.
YH: Aristotle is often known as an "objective" philosopher, as he has made many contributions to modern scientific thinking. The fact that he talks about the soul is fascinating.
DL: Yes, he talks about the soul a lot. I particularly liked when he wrote something along the lines of, "if you have pleasure in what you do, it will become perfection." Much of the book is about inner feelings and thoughts.
[Note. In my previous interview with Nikolai Lugansky, we discussed the idea of the soul in classical music.]
YH: It almost sounds like Aristotle was one of the first psychologists.
DL: Exactly.
YH: Come to think of it, Aristotle was one of the first people to give an account of why people enjoy tragedies. I believe this was in his Poetics. He would talk about how people can enjoy a theatre piece that portrays pity and sadness.
DL: Yes, yes.
YH: Do you enjoy reading ancient philosophers in general?
DL: Yes. For example, I enjoy reading Lao Tzu and Zhuangzi. These are ancient Chinese philosophers who talked about flow states. When you are in a state of flow, you forget about time. These philosophers teach the importance of feeling over thought.
YH: Would you say this state of flow is an experience of total immersion?
DL: Yes. When in a state of flow, you are experiencing the unknown, and you cannot put into exact words what you are experiencing. It was said that the conductor Carlos Kleiber thought Zhuangzi [the book] was one of the most influential books he ever read. He carried by book with him all the time.
YH: How fascinating. I knew that great names in Western classical music such as Karajan, Celibidache, and even Mahler were influenced by Eastern philosophy. But I did not know this was also the case for Carlos Kleiber. Would you say Carlos Kleiber is one of your favourite conductors?
DL: For sure. I like Carlos Kleiber, Wilhelm Furtwängler, Nikolai Golovanov... I'm not too sure if you've heard of Golovanov. He's not famous, sadly. He is a Russian conductor a bit before Yevgeny Mravinsky and Yevgeny Svetlanov. Rachmaninov used to look up to this conductor.
[Note. In my previous interview with pianist Seong-Jin Cho, Seong-Jin expressed his admiration for Carlos Kleiber and that he wanted to play the piano as Carlos Kleiber conducts an orchestra.]
YH: Sadly I do not know much about Golovanov. Did he make many recordings?
DL: Yes. All his Russian repertoire is incredible. His Wagner is also really good; if you listen to Golovanov's recording of Tristan und Isolde's Prelude and Liebestod, you will realise you've never heard anything like it. After you've listened to the recording three times, you won't be able to listen to any other version of the piece. It's very powerful. One can say something similar about Golovanov's Tannhäuser overture, his Scriabin, Rachmaninov, and Glazunov. Golovanov has an absolutely unique way of expressing himself.
Furtwängler is similarly unique and powerful. When you listen to Furtwängler's Beethoven, the tempo constantly changes but the tempo is flowing and natural at the same time. In fact, you do not feel that the tempo is changing. Like Golovanov, Furtwängler's way of music-making is totally astonishing.
YH: I see! It was through listening to Furtwängler that I learned to distinguish tempo and pulse. While the tempo might change drastically in Furtwängler's interpretations, the pulse is often natural and not forced - there's a constant momentum in Furtwängler's music. I'm not a musician. so I imagine you know this distinction much better than I do!
DL: I agree with you entirely. The most important thing in music is the control of time. Furtwängler once said in an interview that if he wasn't convinced Beethoven wanted something in a certain way, he wouldn't do it. It might sound strange, especially because Furtwängler didn't always do what was written in the score, but the goal of a great musician is always to serve the composer. If musicians performed in ways just to emphasise their own personalities, as I think happens often nowadays, I don't think this is ideal.
(DL pauses)YH: Another conductor that is known for changing tempos a lot is Leonard Bernstein. I am curious what your thoughts on Bernstein are.
DL: Of course, he is a genius. Not just as a conductor but also as a composer, he revolutionised music, especially American music. As Bernstein the conductor, I admire his Schumann recordings. The way that Bernstein conducts the Adagio of Schumann's second symphony is simply incredible. And his Schumann cello concerto recording with Rostropovich is probably one of the greatest interpretations of the concerto. I've only mentioned a few conductors - in reality, I have so many conductors I would like to talk about...
(both laugh)
YH: I was just thinking to myself, "why are we still not talking about the violin?"
(both laugh)
YH: I think we should talk about your recordings at some point. Otherwise, your agency might think "why isn't the interviewer promoting our client's works? They've just been gossiping and talking about other musicians for almost half an hour!"(both laugh)
DL: It's better to talk about these other great musicians! But we haven't even started talking about the great Russian conductors.(YH picks up Mravinsky's studio recording of Tchaikovsky's late symphonies (DG) - which happened to be lying near the camera - and shows it to DL.)
DL: Oh!
(both laugh)
DL: There is also a live recording of Tchaikovsky's 6th symphony by Mravinsky... I believe it's on Erato and it was recorded towards the end of Mravinsky's life. That recording is magical.
YH: I actually happen to know that exact recording - it is very powerful indeed. What I like about Mravinsky is how he focuses his repertoire. In the later part of his career, he mainly conducted pieces that were close to his heart - if my memory serves me correctly, many of his Erato recordings are from this late period.
DL: Exactly.
YH: I am fascinated by conductors who focus on their repertoires like this. I can also think of Günter Wand, Sergiu Celibidache, Wilhelm Furtwängler to a certain degree... and, of course, Carlo Maria Giulini.
DL: It's incredible you know these things although you're not a musician.
YH: I think that it's because I'm not a musician that I know a lot about these things, instead of me knowing all this despite the fact that I am not a musician. Since I do not perform, I have much time to listen and to read about old recordings.
(both laugh)
DL: I know some colleagues who don't know anything about old recordings of famous conductors. But I think it's very important to listen to these old recordings.
II.
My first performance of the Beethoven concerto with the Munich Philharmonic was when I was 15. We didn't have much rehearsal time. I was so surprised and amazed about how everything during the concert just perfectly fell into place. And since then, I knew the Munich Philharmonic was my dream orchestra I wanted to record the violin concerto. The sound of the Munich Philharmonic is also really special - I particularly admire the orchestra's great recordings with the likes of Celibidache.
YH: When did it first occur to you that you liked Beethoven's violin concerto so much?
DL: I wanted to record Beethoven's concerto since I was 8. This was also when I heard the concerto for the first time - I immediately knew this was the concerto. So I'm lucky and honoured to record this piece with such great musicians.(both laugh)
DL: But if someone is experienced enough and knows the ins and outs of rehearsals... if they know the importance of not overplaying and overthinking, then I can go with the flow.YH: You've collaborated with so many great conductors across a broad age spectrum. You have, for example, worked frequently with Klaus Mäkelä, who is such a young conductor. I can only imagine that the working atmosphere is very different between him and older conductors.
DL: Klaus Mäkelä is an old soul. We have played together for a few years now. He knows what he is doing. I feel he was a conductor in his past life.
YH: Where do you think this maturity comes from?
DL: Of course, it's about education, but it's also about the soul. The soul is what leads the music you are playing. It directs the various nuances, pauses, and phrases. Great music comes from the richness of the soul. Some people have this in their blood...
YH: ... or as some people would say, "good management skills."
(both laugh)
YH: Sorry, I really wanted to make this joke. Please continue!
DL: So yes, rich knowledge about music makes you a good conductor, without a doubt. But there are things you cannot learn, such as having a musical soul. When it comes to the soul, no matter how much you show some people how to do certain things, and no matter how exactly you show these things to them, they won't be able to feel what you show them because the soul is not in them.
YH: In other words, feelings and instincts are as important as knowledge?
DL: Yes, you need both. When it comes to knowledge, you need to have the right knowledge, too. When you are honing your craft, you want to be sure that you have a proper base. This will allow you to continue learning new things easily without struggling with the basics and things that came before.
[Note. In my previous interview with Vasily Petrenko, past music director of Oslo Philharmonic, we discussed Klaus Mäkelä, the current music director of Oslo Philharmonic.]
III.
YH: While you play many concertos, you also play many solo recitals. Do you prefer working with conductors or doing your own recitals?
DL: Of course, in a solo recital, I am completely on my own. There is no conductor who will disturb me. But this ultimately depends on the conductor I am working with. There can be conductors with whom I am not entirely comfortable, so I'd rather play alone. Then there are conductors with whom I make music. And those conductors, I cherish very much... it can be the best feeling.
YH: Even more than having a good solo recital?
DL: Oh no, no. They are equally great in their own ways. When it comes to collaborations, there is this satisfaction of finding somebody who can feel the same things simultaneously with you. Time can stop and this can be really special. It's similar to an engaged orchestra - you give and they give back. Maybe a good collaboration with an orchestra can be a bit more impactful than any other type of collaboration. But this is extremely rare, sadly (DL laughs).
YH: The reason I asked you about collaborations is that I've read that playing as a soloist can be a very lonely experience. I can imagine that if you're playing alone, you can perhaps have more control over your musical expressions. But the baseline is that you are entirely left on your own.
DL: Loneliness is good, especially for an artist. It forms the basis of what you create. Most of the time, you are in practice by yourself - and you are alone. However, I would say that a concert performance is when I am definitely not lonely. That's the time when I am showing everything I have to people. I would say that true loneliness happens in everything outside of music. For example, when I am travelling in different cities during my performance schedule and I do not know anyone there, I can feel lonely.
[Note. In my previous interview with Sarah Chang, we talked about the differences between playing as a soloist and playing with collaborators.]
YH: Is loneliness a necessary step for any artist?
DL: Yes, it is. It is a very important and necessary step. But loneliness, of course, is complex. Loneliness can also be felt in the presence of people, or some people. You are not alone, but you can feel lonely. This happens because I don't understand them and they don't understand me.
All in all, I don't think there is something inherently lonely in the process of making music. But it's important to have loneliness - you cannot work or create something without the experience of loneliness.
Some people may feel lonely when they are playing music, but I don't feel lonely when playing music. Of course, there can be cases where the music you are playing is melancholic. In that case, you are [lonely]! (DL laughs) But other than these cases, most of my episodes of loneliness come from daily life events outside of music.
YH: I would also like to talk briefly about Bach. Your first recording was a Bach album. And in your most recent Beethoven album, you also included Bach at the end. And in today's conversation, you also mentioned Bach when you compared him to Beethoven. I can only imagine that Bach is a special composer for you.
DL: Bach is like an entire planet. He is the first composer to have shown that music can go beyond this world and connect with the otherworldly. He is one of the few who can be described in this way. Bach simply created a new level of making music, and so many composers were inspired by him.
From a musician's standpoint, Bach is someone who can really expose what kind of a musician you truly are. So there can be famous musicians who can struggle with Bach. To play Bach, you have to bring out everything that you have inside. Playing Bach well requires controlling deep emotions, being aware of musical structures, taking utmost care of the instrumental sound... and carrying spiritual feelings of what is beyond life.
YH: Nowadays, a lot of people seem to like to play Bach in the historically-informed style, using authentic instruments. I am curious what you make of this movement.
DL: That's a good question. The Bach interpreters that inspire me are very diverse. I love the early Glenn Gould recordings, I also love the interpretations of the conductor Enoch zu Guttenberg, as well as Trevor Pinnock when on the harpsichord. I love Pablo Casals playing Bach. They are all so different in their approaches. But the most important aspect of playing music is that the playing has to be convincing. The performances by the performers I have just mentioned are convincing. When I listen to each of these performers, I am convinced that this is how Bach wanted his music to be played.
I suppose there is no one way to interpret Bach. In fact, a composer would love to see how their music can be played in such varying styles and ideas, assuming that the performances are convincing. And Bach can allow these diverse approaches - his music is like an ocean of musical ideas and there is a bit of Bach for everyone. I have learnt everything from Bach - he is my number one teacher. The Sonatas and Partitas for solo violin are like a Bible.
YH: Whenever I listen to the Sonatas and Partitas for solo violin, I forget that it's just one instrument playing. They can sound like a symphony in their sound and grandeur of musical ideas. Emotionally, they can sound so loving but at the same time so melancholic. It's almost like emotions and the medium through which the music is expressed become irrelevant!
DL: You can feel in Bach's music that Bach was a passionate person. You can feel he was self-assured but he also had a lot of suffering.
IV.
YH: I would like to ask you some questions about your everyday life. I understand that you are 20 years old. As someone who is experiencing the depth of the classical music industry from a young age, how do you balance professionalism against things that normal 20-year-old people like to do such as drinking, going to parties, and so on?
DL: All these normal things are all necessary for life... maybe apart from drinking a lot.
(both laugh)
DL: You have to live your life. You have to go to museums, read a lot of literature... you have to meet new people and meet friends. All these things are so important for your emotional and musical development. You have to live as much as possible instead of just working on one thing. If you live fully, then you can always discover something new in the world and also within yourself.
When it comes to music, what is very important is consistency. Luckily for me, this is natural. I cannot live without practising my instrument and listening to music anyway. And if I have time, I like to meet people and friends and go to different places.
YH: I think that's a very mature way of thinking. I have no idea what I was thinking when I was 20 years old.
(both laugh)
YH: I would now like to discuss your short-term or long-term plans. So, what plans do you currently have?
DL: I just sadly had some cancelled concerts this month, and so I hope some concerts for next month will go on.
In terms of my repertoire, I am preparing Schumann's violin concerto, which is entirely new to me. I think Schumann's violin concerto may even be on the same level as Beethoven's violin concerto. The Schumann concerto is the craziest, purest... and most genius piece of music ever written. You can really see the prime of Schumann.
Every time I think of a piece, I always feel that that piece is the best piece ever written...
(both laugh)
DL:... but this Schumann concerto is so profound. When Schumann wrote this piece, he was in an elevated state. He felt that the spirits of Mendelssohn and Schubert were talking to him. In this concerto, he was connecting with his angels through his language of pain. But sadly, it's such an underrated piece, perhaps because Joseph Joachim and Clara Schumann did not appreciate the piece. For example, the manuscript isn't properly written - there are some mistakes in the manuscript. But at the same time, I want to believe that this is a sign that Schumann was entirely immersed in his world of music, where he did not think that the written notes were as important as the ideas he wanted to express. This concerto has a very otherworldly quality. I mean, I could go on and on about this work.
(both laugh)
[Note. In my previous interview with the famed Bach conductor Philippe Herreweghe, the conductor also expressed his admiration towards Schumann.]
YH: There's something so powerful about someone talking about something they are truly passionate about. I can only hope that you can perform this piece in London one day and that I can be there to hear the performance.
(both laugh)
DL: Yes, I hope so too. I am also preparing Shostakovich's violin concerto. For me, Shostakovich is the Beethoven of the 20th century.
YH: Oh! I've always thought that Shostakovich is very similar to Beethoven.
DL: (Animatedly) Yes!
YH: Both composers seemed to express a lot of frustration and anger in their music. And they elevate those intense emotions through music. At least that's how I feel.
DL: Shostakovich suffered a lot. But Shostakovich was able to find the light in music through his suffering.
[Note. In my previous interview with Maxim Vengerov, the violinist also linked Shostakovich with Beethoven.]
YH: It makes me wonder... while art is a deeply emotional activity, you need to have a good balance between logic and emotions in art. If art were purely about emotions, this would be sentimentality, and, conversely, if art were purely about logic, this would be mathematics - not to say that there is such thing as pure logic or pure emotions, and not to say that there is no beauty in sentimentality and mathematics! I think all art becomes great at the moment where emotion and logic become blurred. I think the great conductor George Szell once said that in music, you must think with the heart and feel with the brain.
DL: Yes, if music is just heart, no one will understand. And if it is just intellectual, that can be boring - the piece would be robotic. You need both.
YH: Of course, all human activities require both logic and emotion at some point. But in terms of the balance between both elements and the intensity of each side, I think art is fairly unique (DL nods).
Oh wow, our conversation was meant to be 30 minutes - it turns out we spoke for much longer than that.
(both laugh)
DL: It's a pleasure to talk with you - it's easy.
YH: Likewise. We've talked about various things today, and it's been an absolute pleasure.
DL: Thank you. It's a pleasure.
YH: I hope you can have a good concert when you come here to London next month.
DL: Thank you. See you then.
YH: Thank you for your time.
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| Daniel Lozakovich, © Johan Sandberg |