INTERVIEW | Semyon Bychkov | "In art, there is no separation between life and art"
In conversation with Semyon Bychkov
Online interview on 25 August 2023
[Note. All interviews on the website are approved by the interviewees prior to publication.]
Young-Jin Hur (YH): Good afternoon. It is a pleasure to speak with you today.
SB: I tell you, for me, love is what you cannot live without.
Love can be towards a person, or it can be a work of art. But it is something that you cannot live without. So, there are certain pieces of music without which I cannot live. Bruckner's 8th symphony is one of those pieces. Bach's Mass in B minor is one of those. Parsifal of Wagner is one of those.
They are eliminating because they have all this abundance of ideas. And very often with a composer, when they stumble on a little melody or a metaphor, even an interval, and eventually they decide that somehow it does not fit in this particular piece, they never throw it away. It means they will keep it and use it somewhere else. I always liken composers to squirrels. Imagine a squirrel looking for a nut. It'll find one, then two, then three, then four. It will eat one and it will bury the other ones in the ground for the winter. And composers are like squirrels. They don't throw away things, but it doesn't mean that they will find space for all of the ideas that come to them while composing a specific piece.
YH: There is a spirituality there. I do hope that in your performance in London, you can portray the harmony that is born out of this conflict.
YH: Talking about accepting, it seems the amount of time given to me for interviewing you is up - and I will have to accept this. There are so many other things I would have liked to discuss with you, but I still think we covered a wide range of topics today.
Online interview on 25 August 2023
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| Semyon Bychkov, © Umberto Nicoletti |
Upon being asked about the characteristic pauses and fermatas of his symphonies, Anton Bruckner is known to have said, "Whenever I have something new and important to say, I must stop and take a breath first." As if to emphasise this element of pause - a Brucknerian calm-before-the-storm - the 2023 BBC Proms, taking place a year before the composer's 200th birthday celebration, stages but a single Bruckner performance.
But silence is also a formidable artillery in Bruckner's symphonic language, and the sole Bruckner performance at this year's BBC Proms brings forth an occasion in the form of Maestro Semyon Bychkov conducting the monumental 8th symphony. And while Bychkov does not perform Bruckner very often, the 8th symphony is still the Bruckner work that he conducts most often; both familiarity and freshness are on the calling cards.
In my conversation with Bychkov prior to his BBC Proms performance, I wanted to discuss his relationship with Bruckner while also discussing his approach to performances. We discussed the role of religion in Bruckner's music, the nature of great works in classical music and why Bruckner's 8th symphony is one of them, the various editions of Bruckner symphonies, the various creative processes underlying compositions and interpretations, and the critical roles of spontaneity and spirituality in music-making.
Below is a transcript of our conversation. Minor edits have been made to improve readability.
[Note. All interviews on the website are approved by the interviewees prior to publication.]
I.
Young-Jin Hur (YH): Good afternoon. It is a pleasure to speak with you today.
Semyon Bychkov (SB): Good afternoon to you as well. Thank you for having me.
YH: How are you today?
SB: I'm fine, thank you. I have only two more days before I go back to the world, but it's inevitable. So that's all and that's how I feel.
SB: I'm fine, thank you. I have only two more days before I go back to the world, but it's inevitable. So that's all and that's how I feel.
(both laugh)
SB: If I answer your question in a different way, I am 70 years and a half years old, and that's how I am today (YH laughs). Actually, it's more than half because I will be turning 71 on November 30th. So let's say I'm already more than 70 and a half and getting closer to 71.
YH: I realise I am less than half your age. Is there much to look forward to?
SB: Oh yes. It's getting better and better.
(both laugh)
YH: That's great to hear!
SB: Absolutely. It's getting better and better. I have two children and both of them are adults now. But when they were little, I said to them, "You think that because I'm so much older than you are, I have all the answers to all the questions? It's not true. I simply know more questions than you do, that's all."
(both laugh)
YH: Are there some specific questions that you increasingly ask yourself as you gather more experience in life?
SB: Life brings all sorts of questions and every solution you find will bring you the next questions. So that's how it goes. And it gets better and better because you discover more questions that you have to find the answers to.
YH: If that is the case, I very much look forward to the next 40 years.
SB: You can. Believe me. And you should.
(both laugh)
YH: Thank you for saying that. This is a wonderful start to the interview. It's so positive and inspirational.
I would now like to ask you some questions with regard to musical matters. I would like to talk about your upcoming Bruckner concert with the BBC Symphony Orchestra at the BBC Proms. To start with a general question, I'm curious about the reasoning behind your programming. When I looked at your performance schedule, I noticed that there is a single Bruckner performance sandwiched between multiple Mahler, Dvorak, and Rachmaninov concerts. Was there a special occasion?
SB: I tell you, it's actually very simple. Bruckner is an extremely important composer to me, even though I do not conduct his music very often and very much. But Bruckner's music has been important since my days in Grand Rapids, Michigan when I was music director of the orchestra there. In my first season, I already wanted to conduct - and I did conduct - Bruckner's 7th symphony... and I also conducted his 4th symphony. Conducting Bruckner became of great importance.
I admit it was very difficult because, with Bruckner, the doors do not open immediately. Bruckner also has a certain image from a lot of people as being very boring and repetitive - and very long - and very slow - and very everything. And Bruckner as a person has this image of being basically a simpleton. Nothing is further from the truth. If one does the research, reads his letters, and reads what people said about him at his time, you find a very different picture. And all of this is in his music.
YH: Right, I see.
SB: Bruckner's music is so deeply existential - the music, in fact, is wrought with conflict. At the same time, Bruckner was a man of great religious faith, and one hears this in his music. How can faith and conflict coexist? I think it is easy to live as an agnostic. People who are agnostic say, "I don't know if God exists or does not." That makes things easy. But for people who are either believers or non-believers, it's much more difficult because there inevitably will be moments when those who believe in God will ask questions about whether God exists and, if so, why God allows some things to happen in our world. And those who are non-believers, in moments of real danger in life, still pray to God even though they do not believe in God.
YH: Intuitively, you would think the other way. If you believe so strongly in a certain way of thinking, you would think about life in a singular way, and you would imagine there to be no conflict.
SB: Yes. But, inevitably, there will be a doubt. I am absolutely - absolutely sure that even the Pope will have a doubt in some moments.
YH: Do these insights perhaps come from personal experiences?
SB: It comes from personal experience, and it comes from my attempts to understand human nature and the human condition.
II.
YH: You've talked about Bruckner's symphony in light of Bruckner's life. Does music reflect the lives of composers?
SB: In art, there is no separation between life and art. Art is born from life. Art expresses life, art is an interpretation of life - art and life are not separate.
But one has to also realise that music itself is life. In music, we have musical notes. And all these notes relate to each other. The note that happens at this second is preceded by another one. It'll be succeeded by yet another note. And somehow in combination, they will make for a motif, for a phrase, or many phrases. And if you think of notes as being humans, they are like a community of humans. They have to find a way to live together.
Notes mean nothing by themselves - they are just little dots on the page. But suddenly they become sounds and then they express a story, even if it is not a literary story. There is a story because the notes will bring a certain mood. It could be a story of conflict; it could be a story of a resolution of conflict. It's about emotions and the greater the composer, the greater variety of emotions there will be and the greater the mastery of how to express and organise those emotions. So, music, in fact, is completely existential - just like life itself. This is something I feel about Bruckner.
YH: I see. So what you are saying is that music is life-like in two ways. On the one hand, the musical notes in themselves are a life form. On the other hand, music is also a reflection of a composer's life.
SB: Yes, music often reflects the life of a composer. Still, it would be very simplistic to say that when we hear a piece of happy music, the composer at that moment is incredibly happy. Very often it's the opposite.
YH: I see. So what you are saying is that music is life-like in two ways. On the one hand, the musical notes in themselves are a life form. On the other hand, music is also a reflection of a composer's life.
SB: Yes, music often reflects the life of a composer. Still, it would be very simplistic to say that when we hear a piece of happy music, the composer at that moment is incredibly happy. Very often it's the opposite.
YH: I agree. For example, Schumann wrote his life-affirming C major symphony when he was going through a form of personal crisis.
SB: That's right - exactly right. So, a composition and its creator are not directly related, but you find a relationship once you study the lives of composers. You mentioned Schumann, but we can mention any one of the great giants.
III.
YH: If I am not mistaken, of all Bruckner symphonies, you conducted Bruckner's 8th symphony most often.
SB: That is correct. It the the most important symphony for me.
YH: What do you mean by this symphony being the most important symphony?
SB: Well, I'm not sure I can quite explain it. What I can say is that there are certain tremendous pieces of music that address universal aspects of life, the human condition, and the entire universe. They do it in a way that puts them above many other pieces. This is strictly a personal feeling, and it may not be the same for everyone else. In Bruckner's 8th symphony, the entire scope of the universe in all its facets, contradictions, and harmony is addressed. I can also think of Bach's Mass in B minor and Wagner's Parsifal that are similar in importance.
YH: I see. I am also curious about pieces that are of less importance. Could you, for example, say that the Bruckner symphonies you conduct less can be said to be deficient in some ways?
SB: No, I would never say that - no. Composers develop continuously. And at some point, when you have this gigantic imagination and capacity to create something, something could emerge that will become what we are talking about.
Have you ever asked yourself the question, "What is love?"
YH: Oh. That is an important question, but also a difficult one to answer (YH laughs).
SB: I tell you, for me, love is what you cannot live without.
Love can be towards a person, or it can be a work of art. But it is something that you cannot live without. So, there are certain pieces of music without which I cannot live. Bruckner's 8th symphony is one of those pieces. Bach's Mass in B minor is one of those. Parsifal of Wagner is one of those.
It doesn't mean that these pieces are better than the others. Who could ever say that Parsifal is better than Tristan und Isolde? I think it would be kind of idiotic to even say such a thing. And lots of people considered Tristan und Isolde to be the greatest creation that has ever emerged. It has nothing to do with the value.
YH: I understand. In performing Bruckner's 8th symphony, there are the Nowak and Haas editions, not to mention various versions. Do you believe that the choice between the Nowak and Haas editions may influence the overall importance of the work? I also noticed that you conducted the Nowak edition in the past.
SB: The differences between the Nowak and Haas editions are very small. They're so small that unless somebody really knows the score, a person will not really notice the difference. In the Haas edition, there are several episodes in the symphony that are not there in the Nowak edition, but these are very few. But whichever choice you go for, it's still Bruckner.
SB: The differences between the Nowak and Haas editions are very small. They're so small that unless somebody really knows the score, a person will not really notice the difference. In the Haas edition, there are several episodes in the symphony that are not there in the Nowak edition, but these are very few. But whichever choice you go for, it's still Bruckner.
YH: What do you think these variations in the score say about Bruckner?
SB: Composers are an interesting breed. On the one hand, they have a very deep conviction about what they create. On the other hand, they are riddled with doubts. In the case of Bruckner, Bruckner was influenced by those around him who actually believed in his music and believed in how important his music was. But they felt that if Bruckner makes a few changes where he cuts out various sections from the original, those changes will make the piece sound better and, therefore, become more acceptable to the audiences. Bruckner listened to these views while still believing that his intentions were absolutely correct.
It's a little bit of a paradox of a creative personality because when somebody creates something, the person will see many different ways of realising a creation. It's never just one way. And they do this in the end, by a process of elimination - they will have ideas that they will put together and something will start emerging. Imagine a sculptor, a sculptor will assemble whatever will be used to create a sculpture, let's say clay. So you'll get, I don't know, 50 kilograms of clay and you will start working with it. At first, it has no form - you don't even know what it is. But they have some kind of a vision, and something will start emerging, and towards the end, they will be eliminating everything that doesn't belong to it. And adding just a tiny touch here and a tiny touch there. That's part of the creative process.
They are eliminating because they have all this abundance of ideas. And very often with a composer, when they stumble on a little melody or a metaphor, even an interval, and eventually they decide that somehow it does not fit in this particular piece, they never throw it away. It means they will keep it and use it somewhere else. I always liken composers to squirrels. Imagine a squirrel looking for a nut. It'll find one, then two, then three, then four. It will eat one and it will bury the other ones in the ground for the winter. And composers are like squirrels. They don't throw away things, but it doesn't mean that they will find space for all of the ideas that come to them while composing a specific piece.
IV.
YH: In a musical performance, I suppose there are various sources of creativity involved beyond the creativity from the compositions themselves.
SB: Yes.
YH: For example, in Bruckner performances, conductors often change certain tempo markings and increase the woodwinds and brass sections.
SB: Yes, correct.
YH: I wonder where you stand on this form of process of creativity.
SB: You are talking about interpretation. Interpretation is an interesting thing because without interpretation, which simply means recreation, the creation will remain a dead letter. Those black dots on the paper, that's all there is to it. So somebody will need to bring those notes to life and that person will be an interpreter. Now the point of departure for an interpreter, the absolute point of departure, which is decisive, is to believe in serving the creator because it's the creator who has the primacy. So whatever the interpreter will do, it would be the idea of serving the creation. You can be right but you can also be wrong. And a lot of the time we are wrong - but that's not the point. But it has to start from the premise that the creator is supreme.
YH: That makes sense.
SB: In the end, just as in life, everybody has to serve somebody and then will be served by somebody else. That's absolutely a normal dialectic of life. So there is nothing demeaning about it. It's actually a privilege.
But then when you look at those musical notes, you have a million decisions to make. You have to identify with the piece as if it's yours. It means you have to live with it. And you have to try all kinds of expressions. In everyday life, we can, for example, speak the same sentence in so many ways and they will take different meanings
[SB says the sentence "I just said a sentence" in three different ways.]
Do you see the same words take a different meaning? Depending on the words within the phrase that receive an emphasis, the meaning of the whole sentence changes, even though the words are absolutely the same. Notes are assembled together that constitute a phrase - they can be one bar long or four bars long, or five, whatever is there. You have to organise and express them in a way that will create a specific phrasing.
YH: Yes, I see your point.
SB: That is something that you have to do as a conductor all the time. In conducting, there are three keywords you always have to keep in mind. First, you have to know what it is that you are working on - this is the issue of "what." The second thing to think about is the question, "is it really so?" - you question, and this is the "why" component. Only then comes the next theme, which is the "how" - "how to express it?" With only the "what" and the "why", it's all academic - it doesn't mean anything in music-making. You have to know what it is you're trying to express, then work to find a way to express it, to convey it.
Do you see the same words take a different meaning? Depending on the words within the phrase that receive an emphasis, the meaning of the whole sentence changes, even though the words are absolutely the same. Notes are assembled together that constitute a phrase - they can be one bar long or four bars long, or five, whatever is there. You have to organise and express them in a way that will create a specific phrasing.
YH: Yes, I see your point.
SB: That is something that you have to do as a conductor all the time. In conducting, there are three keywords you always have to keep in mind. First, you have to know what it is that you are working on - this is the issue of "what." The second thing to think about is the question, "is it really so?" - you question, and this is the "why" component. Only then comes the next theme, which is the "how" - "how to express it?" With only the "what" and the "why", it's all academic - it doesn't mean anything in music-making. You have to know what it is you're trying to express, then work to find a way to express it, to convey it.
YH: It seems that phrasing - or the "how", as you so wonderfully put it - is inevitable. And I agree that without the base material - the "what" - you cannot have the "how." Still, do you ever worry that if you change the phrasing too much, this can ultimately impact the nature of the material? In other words, the "how" may have an impact on the "what."
SB: It will always have an impact - always and inevitably. We are not meant to be machines reproducing a carbon copy of what we did yesterday or 10 years ago. Musical performances are not meant to be like that. Music is something that is spontaneous. The greatest performances that touch us the most happen when we have a feeling that the music is being composed at the moment in front of us.
So yes, if you shift the meaning of one phrase, the next phrase will be affected. And the phrase after that will be affected. So it means everything will have to have a subtle shift... very subtle. And most people will not be aware of these shifts. But we who make music together will be aware because we know what we did yesterday and suddenly today it's not the same thing. And it's not supposed to be the same thing. Thank God.
YH: As a non-musician, I have so much admiration towards musicians. There seems to be so much thought and shall I say... spirituality that goes into the music-making process.
SB: It's all about spirituality. Like all art forms, for an interpreter, it's about how to find a way to express that spirituality and how to convey it. Spirituality means both conflict and harmony... how to find harmony in the conflict and how not to allow harmony to be without conflict. Because inevitably there must be conflict.
YH: This brings us back to Bruckner's 8th symphony. You said it is a piece full of conflict.
SB: Yes. And in the end, Bruckner finds the resolution to the conflict and that's what makes the symphony a complete edifice.
YH: There is a spirituality there. I do hope that in your performance in London, you can portray the harmony that is born out of this conflict.
SB: That's what we pray for. This is what we live for. And a lot of the time we're not successful and one has to accept it. It's a matter of that moment.
YH: Talking about accepting, it seems the amount of time given to me for interviewing you is up - and I will have to accept this. There are so many other things I would have liked to discuss with you, but I still think we covered a wide range of topics today.
I would like to thank you so much for your time today.
SB: It's my pleasure.
YH: I very much look forward to your Bruckner performance - I will be there.
SB: How wonderful. I hope you will be touched.
YH: I hope so too. Thank you.
SB: All the best wishes to you.
YH: Likewise, goodbye.
SB: Goodbye.
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| Semyon Bychkov, © Umberto Nicoletti |
Young-Jin Hur
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