INTERVIEW | Jukka-Pekka Saraste | "We now realise the incredible genius of Bruckner"
Online interview on 3 April 2024
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| Jukka-Pekka Saraste, © Felix Broede |
Popularity is just one of the many components of artistic longevity. Though Bruckner has rarely been a blockbuster composer, the torchbearers of his legacy - the Furtwänglers, Karajans, Jochums, and Wands - have impressively held the line across generations to preserve and nurture Bruckner's unique symphonic voice. In 2024, which marks 200 years since the composer's birth, Bruckner's music is celebrated across the globe, further affirming his influence.
Earlier this year, I spoke with Jukka-Pekka Saraste, who has a long history of performing Bruckner's symphonies, both as an instrumentalist and conductor. Throughout the conversation, we discussed Saraste's approach to conducting Bruckner, through which Saraste's sober and sincere artistry was revealed. On multiple occasions, the topic of Sibelius arose, and Saraste's intimate knowledge of the Finnish composer's music helped assess the wider influence of Bruckner's music. There were also discussions concerning the interpretation of Bruckner's Seventh Symphony (which Saraste performed a few days after the interview), various editorial matters concerning Bruckner's scores, and the challenges orchestras face when performing a Bruckner symphony. In these topics, Saraste evinced a deeply human musical vision that was always subject to critical examination.
[Note. All interviews on the website are approved by the interviewee or manager prior to publication.]
I.
Young-Jin Hur (YH): It's a pleasure to have an opportunity to speak with you. I would like to start with a simple question. How
was your Easter?
Jukka-Pekka Saraste (JS): Easter was nice. I was a bit busy because we had the LEAD! Foundation mini festival for young, talented musicians. It happened in a small village called Fiskars in Finland and we had a very intense time. We had some concerts and
some conducting masterclasses as well. So that was my Easter.
YH: So there was no Easter break for you?
YH: That sounds great. As we spoke just before we started recording this conversation, in today's interview, I would like to discuss the works of Anton Bruckner with you. A fun fact is that when I emailed your PR agency to set up today's interview, I was told that you replied straight away that you would like to do an interview on Bruckner. Do you generally enjoy talking about Bruckner?
JS: Since I am performing so much Bruckner this year, I am very happy to talk about Bruckner. There are some things I want to say. I also want to talk about - things that are personally clear to me - how I want Bruckner to sound and why. Bruckner is a very enigmatic composer and there are many things in the tradition of playing Bruckner I personally do not understand. But there are also some very good ways to play Bruckner. So thinking and talking about these things is what conductors and interpreters of Bruckner's music do.
YH: I see. What are some traditions of Bruckner performances that you do not understand?
JS: There is this trend and tradition to play Bruckner extremely slow. From my teenage years, I always wondered where that came from. To me, playing Bruckner too slowly is sometimes totally against the musical content... or the musical will or motivation. So that's one thing, but we can talk about this later.
YH: Sure, I am happy to return to this topic later. Based on what you've just said, it appears that you came across Bruckner at least from your teenage years. How did you first encounter Bruckner?
JS: Really interestingly, Bruckner was actually the first composer that I played as a violinist in an orchestra. I played Bruckner's Third Symphony. The director of the Lahti Conservatory at the time was very much into Bruckner's music. And so he was conducting the Third Symphony and I was playing the first violin part - I practised my part for a long time. Through this process, I started to enjoy Bruckner more and more as a composer.
But I had a second wave of appreciation towards Bruckner. I think I was 13 or 14 years old and this was when I bought a recording of Bruckner's Seventh Symphony. And that was a "big hit" for me (JS smiles). I had a German friend at the time, and we gathered at our house almost every day to listen to the recording.
YH: Do you remember the specific recording of the Seventh Symphony that you had?
JS: It was an LP Vinyl recording of Solti and the Vienna Philharmonic. That was the Bruckner invitation for me.
[Note. Interestingly, Solti's Bruckner was also the starting point of pianist Nikolai Lugansky's enthusiasm for the composer, as can be seen in my interview with him here.]
II.
YH: Given the nature of today's interview, it's pretty remarkable that Bruckner was the first-ever composer you played in an orchestra. Was Bruckner a well-received composer in Finland at the time?
JS: He was. Interestingly, Sibelius wanted to study under Bruckner. Sibelius even went to Vienna but then realised Bruckner was too old and frail to take him as a student. Sibelius always said that Bruckner is the "greatest of them all."
I think Sibelius' symphonic thinking very much came from Bruckner. If you think of the Kullervo Symphony, for instance, there are many echoes of a Bruckner symphony - perhaps Bruckner's Fifth Symphony. For these reasons, I think Finnish conductors were always keen to perform Bruckner.
Historically, there were many famous Bruckner symphony cycles played in Helsinki. Early on, there was a symphonic cycle done by Leo Funtek, who was the teacher of most of the Finnish conductors at that time. Funtek's students included Jorma Panula, Paavo Berglund, and the director of my conservatory. Jorma Panula did the second cycle of Bruckner's complete symphonies in Helsinki, and Paavo Berglund also conducted Bruckner often.
YH: Ah I see. That gives much perspective into why Finnish conductors perform Bruckner so often - and, indeed, I recall reading that Sibelius was enthusiastic about Bruckner's Fifth Symphony.
If Sibelius conductors enjoy performing Bruckner, why is it relatively rare to see Bruckner conductors perform Sibelius?
JS: Maybe the simple answer is that Sibelius got quite far away from the, let's say, the Satz [movement] type of music that Bruckner has. The voicing of the orchestra for Bruckner was also still a traditional one, and Sibelius does not have this. Sibelius doesn't have this "voicing hierarchy" that Bruckner still has in his works.
YH: What do you mean by "voicing hierarchy"?
JS: If you think of how the instruments are used in an orchestra, you can imagine that the instruments can be categorised into different voicing categories, such as bass, baritone, alto, and soprano. For Bruckner, these systematic categorisations are very much there. However, Sibelius did not use the orchestra in the same way. Where the bass parts usually play the harmonic base of a piece, Sibelius was not doing this, especially in the later symphonies. So even though Bruckner and Sibelius may share some musical feelings, they had different concepts of how an orchestra functions based on its instrumentation. For example, in Sibelius' Seventh Symphony, the harmonic voicing is uniquely Sibelian. Sibelius got, for some people, a little too far from the Germanic way of writing music (JS laughs) - and this may put off many conductors.
YH: So it can be a challenge for conductors to go from the more traditional style of Bruckner's music to the more modern style of Sibelius' music.
JS: Yes. However, there are many important Sibelius conductors, such as Herbert von Karajan, who probably got interested in Sibelius because of their affiliation with Bruckner. This is just my guess, but in the case of Karajan, there is a direct line of interpretational development from Bruckner to Sibelius.
YH: I have always been fascinated by Karajan's relationship with Sibelius. On paper, Karajan frequently recorded Sibelius. I think he recorded the Fifth Symphony three times in his career. However, I was surprised to read that he rarely staged Sibelius in live concerts.
JS: That is probably true. One of the greatest inspirations for me and my family was Karajan's recording of Sibelius' Fourth Symphony. That recording was played very often because the interpretation of the symphony was so captivating.
YH: Was there a point where you thought that Karajan's conducting was too "Germanic" - whatever this means - and that you wanted to perhaps present Sibelius' Fourth Symphony in a different way?
JS: The Fourth Symphony is probably the most Germanic of all Sibelius pieces anyway. In this symphony, there are elements of German modernism or the German avant-garde of the early 20th century. You can almost hear a bit of Schoenberg's music. The brass playing of this symphony is also very Germanic.
The Fourth Symphony is, unfortunately, not played as much as it should be. For Finnish people, the Fourth Symphony is probably the most important symphony of Sibelius.
YH: Could you please elaborate on this last point, if I may ask?
JS: The Fourth Symphony was Sibelius' favourite symphony. This symphony has also been received as the most complete and united symphony of all Sibelius symphonies. I believe Finnish conductors most certainly appreciate this symphony more than conductors from the rest of the world do (JS smiles).
YH: I could continue on the topic of Sibelius for a while, but I will have to move forward. Otherwise, we won't have time to discuss Bruckner, which this conversation is meant to be about!
(both laugh)
III.
YH: You will perform Bruckner's Seventh Symphony in Rotterdam in the coming days. Are there particular things in the symphony you would like to bring out during these performances?
JS: As I was telling the orchestra, Bruckner's Seventh Symphony is a very romantic symphony. It's a symphony that has a long theme in the first movement. No other symphony has a theme that lasts a full eight bars. This beginning already gives the idea of the entire symphony, that this is a symphony about melodic lines. That is the uniqueness of this symphony.
There are certain things I am trying to get out of the orchestra. For example, I told the orchestra that when you think a certain section within the symphony is romantic and lyrical, it's simply not enough to play the music like that. This symphony has a certain passion and inner strength that are not sometimes fully expressed. The work has multiple dimensions of sound than what it initially seems to be. In other words, it is simply not enough to play the Seventh Symphony with a humble, modest, and romantic sound. It should have many more expressions, including rude ones. The horror of the world has to be there as well.
YH: I really like what you've said (YH laughs). Bruckner is often seen as a composer who composed sublime music... and in philosophy and art criticism, the aesthetic experience of the sublime is often associated with an experience of terror and delight.
In any case, you mentioned earlier that the traditional way of playing Bruckner often means playing Bruckner slowly. I guess what you are saying is that you do not want to play Bruckner in this traditional way.
JS: I don't want to say that all traditional Bruckner playing is slow. There were, of course, many different styles of playing Bruckner over the years.
If you think of some Karajan or Furtwängler performances of Bruckner and, of course, performances by Günter Wand, they are not slow at all. Many respected Bruckner conductors were totally against the idea of playing Bruckner only slowly. I don't know where this slow way of playing Bruckner comes from. If someone writes allegro moderato and it sounds like molto largo, then this does not make sense to me.
YH: I sometimes wonder if the excessive slowing down of Bruckner can disrupt the view of the underlying structure of Bruckner's symphonies. Günter Wand may have said something similar in his justification of conducting Bruckner not too slowly.
Talking of symphonic structures, some may argue that Bruckner's Seventh Symphony is a work that is difficult to pull off given its front-heavy structure. What I mean is that two massive movements are followed by two shorter movements. What do you make of this?
JS: Today, I had an afternoon performance of the symphony's third and fourth movements in front of an audience. I told the audience that there was probably a catastrophe going through Bruckner's mind while he was composing this symphony. This is because Bruckner was writing this symphony while he had the intuition that Richard Wagner, one of Bruckner's greatest musical idols, would soon die. Indeed, Wagner died while Bruckner was composing the second movement of this symphony.
I think this catastrophe is reflected in the symphony's structure. There is a lot of anxiety in the fourth movement, which was, in fact, the last movement that Bruckner completed composing in writing this symphony. This last movement is like a journey that tries to go somewhere but one that never hits its goal - and so the length of this last movement should be as it is. Somebody once said that the finale is like a Haydn symphony finale, a cheerful giocoso (JS laughs). However, for me, the finale is a restless soul that tries to find meaning again, and it should be played this way.
YH: I see. Another discussion about the Seventh Symphony concerns whether or not to include the cymbal crash in the second movement's climax. What is your take on this subject?
JS: I usually include the cymbal crash. The cymbal crash is almost too "Wagnerian". Nevertheless, for me, I think it needs to be there (JS laughs). Considering how Bruckner builds the chordal harmony towards the climax, there needs to be a resolution with some kind of a big crash.
YH: Fair enough. So I guess the decision is very much a musical decision, rather than an academic one.
JS: Yes. Of course, there is an argument by scholars saying that the inclusion of the cymbal crash was not done by Bruckner himself. However, to me, the cymbal crash sounds appropriate.
IV.
YH: As you just implied, the Bruckner scholarship is full of discussions regarding the validity and selection of various available editions and versions of each symphony. When you perform Bruckner, how careful are you in the selection of the editions and versions? Assuming that the source is correct, I noticed that in your past performances of the Eight Symphony, you used the Nowak edition back in 2007 at Oslo but used the Haas edition in 2010 at Cologne.
JS: When I heard the Haas edition of Bruckner's Eighth Symphony, I took note of the few additional bars taken from the first version of Bruckner's Eight Symphony, which are absent in the Nowak edition. I then started to think about Bruckner's well-meaning friends who encouraged Bruckner to make cuts from the first version of the symphony because those passages sounded too strange - these friends wanted to help Bruckner's works get more accepted.
I wanted to bring out these few bars by using the Haas edition. There are not many of these bars... maybe there are 40 to 50 bars in total that are added to the Nowak edition. I thought these additional bars brought out the fantasy world of Bruckner and Bruckner's musical imaginations much more clearly. Of course, all these various versions and editions exist in the first place because of Bruckner's friends who wanted to help him.
The Third Symphony is another good example. I used to conduct the last version of the symphony. But at a certain point, I started conducting the second version of the symphony. Nowadays, I always conduct the second version. In the second version, there are some very personal and original elements of Bruckner that I wouldn't like to lose.
YH: I agree. I particularly like the coda of the Scherzo from the second version, which is sadly absent in the last version of the Third Symphony. It's fierce and aggressive in a nice way.
JS: Absolutely. And the abrupt stops and silences in the finale are also very interesting. Perhaps those stops may have influenced Sibelius' Fifth Symphony (JS laughs). I don't know how many perform Bruckner's Third Symphony using the third version, but it's become much more common nowadays to perform Bruckner Symphonies that incorporate earlier versions.
YH: Have you ever considered making your own cuts or edits to a Bruckner symphony's scores? In discussing Bruckner, Paavo Berglund - who was briefly mentioned in our conversation earlier - once said that conductors can have the freedom to edit scores because the composers didn't always know what was best for themselves.
JS: Actually, before I studied the Haas edition of the Eight Symphony, I was planning to perform what looks very much like the Haas edition of the symphony. I wanted to cut pages from the first version of the symphony and add them to the Nowak version of the symphony. So it was kind of a surprise to me that what I wanted to do already existed in the form of the Haas edition. I really wanted to make my own version of the Eight Symphony, but it turned out to be almost exactly like Haas' version.
YH: I see. If my research is correct, of the mature symphonies of Bruckner, you do not conduct the Fourth and Sixth Symphonies often. I first want to ask if this is correct and if so, I would like to ask if there are specific reasons for you not performing these symphonies often.
JS: Well, I sometimes conduct the Sixth Symphony. But I kind of stopped conducting the Fourth Symphony. Why don't I conduct the Fourth Symphony often? That's a good question. The most compelling Bruckner symphonies are the ones I perform most often. I perform most often in the order of the Eighth, the Ninth, the Fifth, the Third.... and, of course, the Seventh. The Third Symphony appears very often in my programmes. Sometimes I enjoy the idea of the Sixth Symphony a lot. I have also performed the Second Symphony a couple of times. I know the First Symphony but I have never conducted it in concerts. I need to think about why I don't conduct the Fourth Symphony often.
(both laugh)
V.
YH: What do you think is Bruckner's relevance to the present times?
JS: It is probably very important to perform Bruckner nowadays. Nowadays, people are surrounded by short and fragmented pieces of information. However, I believe that deep inside, the human mind needs that kind of information that is unbroken and long-lined, as you get in a Bruckner symphony. So even if those who are not used to this kind of music may feel restless and uneasy at the beginning of a Bruckner symphony... when they allow themselves to just concentrate, sit, and relax to experience what Bruckner builds up, many of them would admit to how important that experience is. So I strongly believe that Bruckner is one of the most important composers for the concert programme at the moment.
YH: Perhaps this is why Bruckner has become more popular than ever. Compared to a decade ago or so, we have much more Bruckner playing in concert halls these days.
JS: I think we have gone through some very interesting musical times. Along the way, certain traditions of thinking about music are sometimes forgotten or ignored. However, Bruckner's music is returning. Bruckner's music has these interesting harmonic inventions. In terms of structure, much like Schubert, Bruckner was developing these long-formatted pieces that have harmonic development with minimal melodic or motivic development. These are things that we find value in these days.
However, there are also futuristic things in Bruckner's compositions. A couple of weeks ago, I performed the Ninth Symphony. For me, this work is totally avant-garde in terms of the instrumentation, harmony, and voicing of the instruments. I thought this music was so much from where Schoenberg left off... or it could be that Bruckner had an influence on Schoenberg. Now that we have been through this incredible journey of experimenting with music over the past century, experimenting in different ways of styles and harmonies, we are returning to Bruckner's music. We now realise the incredible genius of Bruckner.
YH: Do you think the listening experience of Bruckner and the performing experience of Bruckner differ much from each other? For example, I am an avid listener of Bruckner's music but I have never performed Bruckner. If I ever get to perform a Bruckner symphony, would I gain a new level or different type of appreciation towards Bruckner's music?
JS: I'm not too sure. I would think that the sensation of performing Bruckner is very similar to what it is like to listen to Bruckner (JS smiles). When we are performing, we can trust that the attention to Bruckner's massive buildup is also happening in the audience. I've heard from many members of the audience that they really feel captivated by Bruckner developing these long musical lines.
Performing Bruckner can sometimes be very challenging for the orchestra. Given the way Bruckner writes, playing the brass section demands a totally different approach from that of the string section. The brass section usually plays together with the strings - sometimes they play the exact same melody. So if you do not understand the sound of the brass, things don't really work. You have to somehow build a cohesive sound that takes into consideration everything that is happening in the orchestra. So that's a big challenge.
YH: That's very insightful. So it appears that the management of instrumental sound in itself is an important task in performing Bruckner.
JS: Yes. A very good example comes in the very beginning of the Seventh Symphony. The cellists usually play a hectic vibrato from the first note of the first theme. But then I say to the orchestra, "Think about this horn solo that is playing together with you. Try to combine sounds. Always think that the horn is playing the exact same theme. You wouldn't play molto vibrato, but you somehow have to create a sound as if the cellos and horn represent a single instrument." The orchestration of Bruckner is one thing I am increasingly fascinated about.
YH: I see. Please forgive me for continuing to bring up other conductors in our conversation, but what you say reminds me of Paavo Berglund's fascination with orchestration and instrumental details. Towards the end of his career, he became interested in playing standard repertoire symphonies - like Sibelius symphonies - in chamber orchestras.
JS: You're right. Well, I happened to be in very close contact with him since the early 80s. I got to know him very, very well. We talked and we played music together - with violins sometimes. He gave me scores of Sibelius. If you think of someone as a mentor, he was a true mentor to me. I learned a lot from him.
YH: Ah, I see. As a mentor, what was the most important thing he taught you?
JS: His musical mind was not too articulate but he felt music in an incredible, deep way. Sometimes the verbal expressions or descriptions were totally fascinating - they were nothing like a musician would say. He was thinking on a totally abstract level but there was something very natural and human in what he was saying. It was very interesting to be with him.
YH: I am quite curious about the expressions he used. Is there an example?
JS: He loved these "messages" from composers. Once he was talking about Smetana's Aus meinem Leben string quartet. In the music, there is a part where a sharp flageolet comes in. He said, "You see, that was when he got his hearing problem!" To him, the flageolet represented a shocking effect of something - because Smetana became deaf towards the end of his life - and this flageolet sound was like tinnitus. He always picked these kinds of things that made the composers somehow more interesting; he gave them more personality.
Of course, Sibelius' Fourth Symphony was for him something incredible. How he conducted the ending of this symphony - with the last cries from the woodwind and then the A minor three notes - was a model to follow (JS laughs).
YH: Didn't Sibelius think very much of his own mortality while he composed the Fourth Symphony?
JS: Yes, he had a cancerous tumour removed from his throat.
YH: That's right. Okay, I took a lot of your time today, and I would like to thank you for making time today...
JS: I just wanted to say one last thing about Paavo Berglund. It happened during our last meeting. At that time, he was very frail - he was very much confined to his bed, never to fully recover. He asked me, "Where is your next conducting destination?" I said, "I am going to Oslo." He said, "When do you fly?", to which I replied, "I fly on Monday morning." He simply said, "I would fly on Sunday evening." (JS laughs) That was his final message to me: always be somewhere early enough to get accustomed to the new situation; do not rush, going to the rehearsal straight from the airport. It's a very good piece of advice.
(both laugh)
JS: People who live this hectic life can think that the more they rush around, the better it is. But sometimes it's good to take this piece of advice. These pieces of advice come from experience.
(both laugh)
YH: Ah, it's a wonderful way to conclude an interview - receiving life advice at the end! I wish I could reciprocate, but I think I'm too inexperienced in life for wisdom (YH laughs). All I can say is that I really wish you lovely upcoming concerts.
JS: Thanks. I enjoyed this conversation.
YH: Thank you. Likewise - I really enjoyed talking with you.
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| Jukka-Pekka Saraste, © Felix Broede |
Young-Jin Hur
@yjhur1885
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