INTERVIEW | Vladimir Ashkenazy | "music gives mankind understanding of our existence and our world"

In conversation with Vladimir Ashkenazy

Interviewed in London on 22 April 2019.

Vladimir Ashkenazy, © Keith Saunders

To this day, I recall those lazy days from my childhood when I would go through my parents' CD collection. The modest collection bore the hallmarks of the standard repertoire and thus was what - for a child as myself - could be described as an unfussy playground, a broad introduction to the delights of classical music. Neatly shelved in my memories of those times are Solti's 1991 remake of Mozart's Die Zauberflöte, Wand's Beethoven symphony cycle, Karajan's Mozart violin concertos with Anne-Sophie Mutter, and Abbado's Brahms Hungarian Dances, especially. 

Then there was Vladimir Ashkenazy's Chopin Nocturnes and Ballads. Finding place in households with humble classical music interests  - I doubt my parents ever went to a classical music concert on their own volition - and among giants as Karajan and Solti, such is the recorded legacy of Vladimir Ashkenazy. Yet the inundation of recordings are but part of the story. Vladimir Ashkenazy has always been in the hearts of concertgoers from Japan, Iceland, and to the United States. In the UK, where his concert hall contributions were especially distinguished, the name Vladimir Ashkenazy now renders itself a guardian of classical music's rich traditions and its inextinguishable fires.

For some as Vladimir Ashkenazy, established and in a golden age past the frenzied roar of youth, self-pride may have been permitted if not expected. Yet in the Vladimir Ashkenazy I talked to, I was met with a warm and humble personality, entirely free of hubris or pretence. With his wife Þórunn (anglicised as Thorunn) Ashkenazy by his side, Mr. Ashkenazy spoke in calm English, accented with a just noticeable flavouring of a Slavic tongue. We exchanged thoughts on the uniqueness of the Philharmonia Orchestra, light music as opposed to classical music, composing music, his fascination toward the orchestra from a young age, Sibelius' piano music, difficulties of playing Liszt, Debussy, on Russians conducting Shostakovich, and Finland.  

Below is an edited transcript of the interview. I have attempted with utmost care to preserve the content and flow of the actual conversation.

I.

Young-Jin Hur (YH): Welcome to London.

Vladimir Ashkenazy (VA): Thank you.

YH: Thank you for making time. It’s a pleasure to meet you. How it’s like to be in London again?

VA: I like this place very much. For me, London is a cultural centre. It is a historical centre too. London has many concerts and has a long history of performances. So all this makes London a very important place for music and for many other aspects of our human culture.

YH: I agree. On a personal level, London must be a symbolic place for you. In the 70s when you started conducting orchestras, you conducted London’s Philharmonia Orchestra often.

VA: That’s true. My first important orchestra was the Philharmonic Orchestra. I conducted some less important orchestras before, and nobody took notice. But the first important orchestra on a grand scale with lots of newspaper coverage was the Philharmonia in London. I will never forget it. I was reasonably successful. I was very impressed I could do well. I continued my collaboration with the orchestra for a long time after that.

YH: What are some of your fondest memories of the orchestra?

VA: There have been too many good concerts to say which one I remember particularly. I don’t know. The Philharmonia are an orchestra of an incredibly high level. They can play many concerts so well that you cannot think which concert was the best one.

YH: Do you think the sound of the orchestra has changed over the years?

VA: I don’t think so. The sound is a very noble one, with great bows, and everyone knows what to do. They have tremendous experience. They play so many concerts and cover so much repertoire that they know what to do in various pieces. So anyone who conducts them is lucky. Even if you ask for a little bit, they’ll play much better. If you give them special ideas or feelings regarding some phrases or a movement of a symphony, they always realise it, reacting immediately.

YH: Indeed, there is much legacy behind the Philharmonia. After all, they went under the hands of Karajan, Böhm, Klemperer, Giulini, and so on, at some points in their history.

VA: Yes, but much still depends on the musicians. Not all orchestras react to conductors and retain a specific sound. The entire orchestra dwell and live in their sound. Many other orchestras do this but to different degrees. So it’s difficult to compare. Generally speaking, all London orchestras operate on high levels. The LSO, Philharmonia, LPO, and so on. They are world-class. I am lucky I can conduct them.

II.

YH: Before I continue, I would like to make a small digression. I should address your wife Thorunn here, given that she is the room too. How did you first meet?

Thorunn Ashkenazy (TA): I had graduated from the Royal Academy of Music. Then I was given a choice to study one year either in Vienna or Moscow. I ended up going to Moscow, where I met him eventually. It was 50 something years ago. 

VA: She studied with the same professor as I did, Mr. Lev Oborin. He was a wonderful musician, who both taught and performed. He often played with Mr. Oistrakh, the great violinist. They were a duo and I went to their concerts a few times. He was a very kind and nice man, as well as being a respected musician.

YH: That’s fantastic. Going back to musical matters, you’ve seen great success both as a pianist and conductor. Did you always want to do both?

VA: It goes a long way back. I started playing the piano because my father was a pianist. Although he was a light music pianist, he had played all the great composers as Beethoven and Mozart before. It was this latter category of music that drove me to play the piano, as I didn’t like my father’s light music too much. He took notice of my playing, and when I eventually learned all the pieces he played, this impressed him. He took me first to the Central Music School of Moscow, then to the conservatory. I started winning prizes. I think he was proud of me by the fact that although he himself became a light music pianist, I went to serious music and became successful. 

YH: You’ve had a very supportive father in your childhood. Was there a reason you didn’t like his light music?

VA: Well, I think our [serious] music has so much to tell us. Compared to light music, it is much more complex, and the area and depth of expressions are beyond any measure of evaluation. It’s almost beyond our understanding. With light music, there were some gifted musicians who put things very well together. But to say that light music gives mankind understanding of our existence and our world, no, you couldn’t say that. Light music can be pleasant and entertaining in a good sense. The gap between the two types of music is tremendous.

YH: As a performing musician, have you ever considered composing, since that you’ve been so involved in the genre of classical music?

VA: No, no. A gift of composition is… (laugh). Composing is a gift of God, of nature, or of whatever it is. The gift is either given to you or not. If it’s not given to you, there’s nothing you can do. Think of Bach and Beethoven, and in our time, Rachmaninov, Shostakovich, Ravel, Debussy… we cannot understand how they created their music. We cannot understand everything. We are grateful that nature or God gave this incredible gift to some individuals. Those individuals, by giving their music to us, make our lives richer. 

YH: Do you believe in fate?

VA: Fate? It’s difficult to say. You can say, for example, if something happens to me, it had to happen... I don’t know. If I had behaved differently, maybe things could have been different... I don’t know. But I take what happened to me with a realistic mind. I sometimes think if I had behaved differently, something negative wouldn’t have happened. So in case, similar things will happen again, I can think more about what I do, what I say, how I behave, and so on. Or maybe things that happened to me before won’t happen again. You never know in life. Unexpected things happen. 

YH: When those unexpected events lead to something good, I guess we can call that serendipity.

(TA laughs)

VA: Yes, it’s an interesting concept. That’s what our lives are. 

III.

TA: Excuse me, may I interrupt for a moment? You asked earlier about conducting. I think it’s important to note that his mother told me that as a child, his first total fascination was the orchestra (VA nods). She would take him to the ballet or orchestra, and he would only look at the orchestra. So she would say “next time we’ll get a better seat so can he can better see the orchestra pit.”

VA: Yes!

TA: So this total fascination with the orchestra was a very early thing for him. When he first went to the West, he brought scores of orchestral pieces. It was a total obsession. He even orchestrated the Liszt sonata before we left the Soviet Union. So the orchestra was always something important for him. I just had to point this out (laugh).

VA: Thank you. You see, my mother wanted to take me [to the opera and orchestra] because she knew music was in the family. My father was a pianist, I liked what he played, and she took me to the Bolshoi Theatre. I looked at the stage and the national orchestra… it was incredible! For me, the orchestra was more important than what was happening on stage. That’s how it all started. 

YH: Considering that you would become a pianist eventually, what happened around that time of your life if there was a piano concerto, for example? Did you focus on the piano or the orchestra? 

VA: That’s difficult to say. I cannot remember that. 

TA: He has to focus on the piano (laugh).

YH: I meant as an audience member.

TA: Ah, no, as an audience well… [I don’t know].

VA: It depended. 

TA: He didn’t go to listen to too many pianists. 

VA: No. 

TA: But he was always incredibly aware of what the orchestra was doing, and he knew exactly what was happening there. He was fascinated.

VA: Yes. When I was in the conservatory, I went to many orchestral concerts, because I was drawn to orchestral music. Of the repertoire, I wanted to know all the symphonies, not only piano concertos. So I learned all the Tchaikovsky and Beethoven symphonies by listening to them. And of course, LPs were just coming out at the time. So I collected many LPs to listen to them at home. I was lucky my mother and father understood me. I learned so much [orchestral] music just by listening to different performers and orchestras. It was tremendous.

IV.

YH: Talking of orchestral music, when did Sibelius come into your life? You first recorded Tchaikovsky symphonies in the late 70s then went immediately to record Sibelius symphonies. Presumably, this was part of your fascination in symphonies.

VA: Sibelius at that time in Russia wasn’t played so often. Perhaps people knew of his violin concerto, one or two symphonies, and some other shorter pieces. He was not part of the standard repertoire yet. My wife loved and knew quite a lot of Sibelius pieces. So she would recommend me several Sibelius works and would play me many of the symphonies. I was amazed how much I had missed before. Little by little, I became very close to Sibelius. Afterwards, I couldn’t be without Sibelius. 

YH: There’s no argument that you’re one of the champions of the composer (TJ makes an audible cheer). You recorded the Sibelius symphony cycle twice. You also made celebrated recordings of Sibelius' songs. Curiously, you didn’t record much of his solo piano music until 2010. 

VA: Well, there are some nice piano pieces, but there aren’t so many of them. Besides, piano music wasn’t one of his most important elements, you see. 

TA: There are some nice pieces. He (looking at VA) recorded some of them using Sibelius’ own piano. Overall, Sibelius was much more involved in orchestral and vocal music, and didn’t compose many solo piano pieces. 

VA: You see, for him, the piano was not good enough. That’s nothing to say negative about him. He composed some nice piano music, but for what he wanted to give, the piano wasn’t enough. He needed an orchestra, specifically an orchestra's incredible colour and incredible possibilities of expression. 

YH: Although you mentioned Debussy and Liszt as great passions of yours, there aren’t many recordings of them by you, compared to, say, Beethoven or Rachmaninov. Was there a reason you didn’t record much Debussy and Liszt?

VA: Liszt had huge hands, and he wrote huge chords in virtuoso passages. For my hands, this was always a problem. I can play some pieces, but others are quite a problem. So I played what I could, and I liked those pieces very much. He was a genius, of course, in a certain way. Well, I recorded quite a lot of Debussy. 

YH: Ah, that must be my mistake then. I thought you hadn't recorded much Debussy.

VA: I did all the preludes. 

TA: Well, that’s just recent. Not long ago, a live recording of the Preludes from New York’s Hunter College was discovered. 

VA: Yes.

TA: It’s on Paladino. Our son works with this company a lot. Last year marked 100 years since Debussy’s death. In that recording, some other Debussy pieces were included. These newly included pieces were recorded in Vienna.

VA: I played some other pieces too. I recorded some things, but I cannot record everything. Debussy is one of my favourite composers, absolutely no question. And Ravel too… Gaspard de la Nuit and Sonatine, and other incredible pieces. So I recorded quite a lot.

TA: More than most!

(all laugh)

 

V.

YH: I will ask one more question about Sibelius, given your close link with the composer's music. There seems to be a tight relationship between Sibelius and Great Britain. British conductors as Anthony Collins, Sir Colin Davis, and Sir John Barbirolli have conducted Sibelius, and numerous British orchestras as the LSO, LPO, and the Philharmonia have been involved in playing Sibelius too. Sibelius is not played in other European countries so frequently. I am curious what makes Sibelius such an interesting composer to the British people?

VA: That’s difficult to say. 

TA: I don’t know. 

VA: You see, I couldn’t talk for the British people because that would be arrogant. I can talk a little bit about some Russian preferences…

TA: … you mentioned Anthony Collins. I once played a Mozart concerto with the National Youth Orchestra. The second half was Sibelius’ second symphony. It was the first time I heard the symphony, and I was blown away. I still remember like it was yesterday. And that performance was conducted by Anthony Collins. I get goosebumps now just thinking about it. 

VA: When I heard Sibelius’ fifth symphony, I thought it was amazing. But I think my first Sibelius was the violin concerto, with Oistrakh playing it in Russia. I was absolutely floored by that performance, and it drove me to try to get some other Sibelius music to listen to. Then I started travelling. When I went to the West, I brought suitcases full of LPs. You see, not many travelled to the West at that time. Because I was a pianist, I was sent to many places, and I came back with suitcases full of LPs and scores you couldn’t find in Russia. Back then, one could get access to Tchaikovsky, Mussorgsky, and Beethoven in Russia, but not Sibelius, Ravel, Stravinsky… so when I brought back suitcases full of recordings and scores, people were astonished, asking “all you brought is this?”

(all laugh)

VA: Others went to the West to bring clothes or other rare things in Russia. Russia was much relatively low in commodities at the time. It was the Soviet Union. 

TA: The Soviet Union.

VA: The Soviet Union was. They thought I’d bring back suits, not all these LPs, music, music, and music. But music was what I wanted. And I started lending out LPs, although I learned that sometimes those LPs didn't return ... which was terrible of course (all laugh). What can you do? You cannot say no when someone asks for music. 

VI.

YH: You’ve mentioned the Soviet Union, and you will play some Shostakovich symphonies in upcoming Philharmonia concerts. Some commentators and critics say that if you really want to play Shostakovich well, you must have lived through the Soviet system. Do you agree with this?

VA: There are some wonderful Western conductors, who without having ever lived in Russia understand Shostakovich and give successful Shostakovich performances. If you’ve lived in the Soviet Union, of course, it’s easy to say “oh that’s what Shostakovich wanted. I was there and Shostakovich tried to express and deliver thing that both he and I saw.” But in the West, there are many talented people who understand Shostakovich too. For example, Karajan’s Shostakovich is not bad (all laugh). So no, I don’t believe in such claims. 

(Note. A similar issue of whether Czech musicians play Czech music most effectively, was discussed in a previous interview with Jakub Hrůša.)

YH: I am glad to hear this. I always had doubts of these socio-cultural claims. 

VA: Exactly.

YH: With this, I can only wish that on Wednesday, you will have a wonderful performance of Shostakovich’s tenth symphony. 

TA: The tenth is a wonderful symphony, 

VA: You always try. 

YH: Thank you very much for your time. 

VA: My pleasure.

VII.

(as we are just about to conclude the interview, TA extends the conversation by bringing up Sibelius and Finland.)

TA: I also want to tell you more about Sibelius. He’s a Finnish composer, of course. And I love Finland to bits. Icelanders even say that the Finns are closer to us than the Scandinavians are, although we, Icelanders, are Scandinavians. So I would say Sibelius is ours (all laugh). We even have a cottage in Finland – we’ve been going there every summer for 50 years. 

YH: Have you read the Kalevala by any chance? I read the Kalevala because of Sibelius' tone poems. It’s a wonderful piece of literature. 

TA: Ah yes, the Kalevala! No, we haven’t. Sibelius must have had an incredibly strong mentality, like most Finns. Finland had Russia on one said, and Sweden the other side. Not funny. In a way, Iceland is similar. Because of the North Atlantic, we Icelanders are completely isolated. 

YH: I think Koreans are similar to the Finnish because we have China and Japan as neighbours. One could even add Russia.

TA: Yes, it is exactly the same! 

VA: But you managed to retain your uniqueness.

YH: Yes indeed. The annexation of Karelia, too, is a rather sad part of Finnish history. 

TA: Exactly. How did you get interested in Finland?

YH: The music of Sibelius brought me to research Finnish history. I learned Finland and Korea share a similar history. As a Korean, I got intrigued.

(Note. The historical and cultural similarities between Korea and Finland have also been discussed in a previous interview with Osmo Vänskä.)

TA: Do many people in Korea think similarly about Finland?

YH: I am not entirely sure. I would be surprised if the average Korean knows about Finnish history in as much detail as I do. Anyway, I think we’ve gone rather over time. Thank you very much. It was a pleasure talking to you.

TA: It was a great pleasure. 

VA: It was a pleasure talking to you as well. 

Vladimir Ashkenazy, © Ben Ealovega and Decca

Young-Jin Hur

@yjhur1885