INTERVIEW | Seong-Jin Cho | "it’s important to find happiness one can relate to"
In conversation with Seong-Jin Cho (조성진 인터뷰)
Interviewed in London on 28 March 2019.
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| Seong-Jin Cho, © Harald Hoffmann |
Had one not known Seong-Jin Cho the musician, one could have mistaken him as a nearby London university student. They say that first impressions are formed within seconds upon meeting someone, and when I visited the Barbican Centre to meet with Seong-Jin, winner of the prestigious International Chopin Piano Competition, I was immediately met with an unassumingly casual atmosphere that loomed about the pianist.
Yet life is a constant tug-of-war between expectations and various unknowns, and great beauties often occur with the revealing of an unknown unknown, especially as it enters one's life with brimming wisdom and realisations. In the 30 minutes I had with Seong-Jin, I was introduced to such delights, as I came to acquaint a musical mind also sensitive to life's broad textures. Like Seong-Jin's own music-making, the conversation had a clarity that bore an effortless rhythm. Laughter and benign jokes were aplenty, all the while a sense of respect and seriousness prevailed.
Below is a translated transcript of the conversation (originally held in Korean). While certain sections are minutely abridged, I have attempted with utmost care to retain the flow and spirit of the entire conversation. We talked about the balance between emotion and thought in music-making, qualities important for concerto collaborations, Seong-Jin's future conducting plans, the balance between confidence and arrogance in music-making, Seong-Jin's "poetic" style of playing, the nature of developing musical personalities, the ways of dealing with popularity, the role of music in Seong-Jin's everyday life, and the meaning behind finding happiness.
I.
Young-Jin Hur (YH): I understand you have a busy schedule. Thank you very much for making time. It’s the first time you perform in London in 6 months. How does it feel to be back?
Seong-Jin Cho (SC): I’ve performed in many cities, but there is something special about London’s audiences. Not only are they considerate toward performers, but it is also clear that they love the music they listen to. Simultaneously, London is not an easy place to perform, because there is a lot of media coverage and because everyone knows the music so well. However, I enjoy playing in London very much. In other European countries like France or the Netherlands, audiences are more vocal and expressive in their applause after performances, but London has a unique energy.
YH: I can understand – London has a strong music criticism culture. Besides, there are people like me who nag for interviews all the time.
(both laugh)
Outside of music, what does London mean to you?
SC: I visited London for the first time in February 2013. In September 2012, I started my studies in Paris. I am close to pianist Sunwook Kim [Note. see my interview with Sunwook Kim here], and because he resided in London at the time, I stayed over at his place. So that was when I first visited London. London gave a memorable first impression, and I was attracted to the city. I enjoyed going to museums especially. Many of them were free (laugh), such as “the Tate” [sic]. I generally enjoy visiting museums.
At the time, I also attended a London Symphony Orchestra performance. Bernard Haitink performed Bruckner’s 9th symphony and Maria João Pires was the soloist for Beethoven’s 2nd piano concerto. I was not particularly impressed with the sound [of the Barbican Hall], but Haitink’s performance was very good. Considering that London has multiple performance venues such as the Royal Festival Hall or Wigmore Hall, I thought London is a wonderful place for a musician to live.
YH: I think we were at the same performance!
(both laugh)
You said you were impressed with Mr. Haitink’s conducting. From a pianist’s perspective, what aspects of Mr. Haitink’s conducting stood out the most?
SC: At that time, Mr. Haitink was approaching his 80s. I could feel his life through his music-making. In his interpretation, I could see how years of musical dedication can create an immense sense of depth. That depth, I think, can only be acquired with age. I was moved.
YH: 6 years have passed, and now you return to the same hall as a performer with conductor Gianandrea Noseda. You seem to have a long history with Mr. Noseda. Last year, you made your BBC Proms debut with him. Not only did you and Mr. Noseda collaborate in various other concert occasions, but you two have also made recordings together. Does this mean that there is a strong sense of communication between you and Mr. Noseda?
SC: (with no hesitation) Yes. I always have much pleasure playing with Mr. Noseda. He conducts with incredible passion. His cues and body gestures tend to be large, perhaps because he is a tall person in general. In rehearsals, he is simply “amazing” [sic] (SC laughs). He has such a sensitive ear that he catches every rubato I make. When it comes to shaping the orchestra, he never allows himself to follow the flow or rely on the instincts of the moment. It is clear he has thought everything through, and he takes great care in balancing the orchestra's sonority. On the outside, he may be emotional, but everything is thought through. I was impressed by such ability of Mr. Noseda to be fastidious but still be so naturally emotional. That’s a wonderful advantage of working with him.
YH: The way Mr. Noseda balances thoughts and emotions… is that how you play the piano too?
SC: Most ideas are in the score already, so it is important to carefully study the score. In my performances, what is most crucial is to be confident. That confidence, in my opinion, comes from the certainty that I know the score more than anyone else. Sitting between the orchestra and the audience, I must be ready to say, “I know this score much more than all of you.” For this to happen, I have to carefully learn the score. For instance, if some dynamics markings are not taken into account because one wants to be different, such creativity should not come out from instinctive feelings. Rather, one should be able to explain why such liberties were taken, because one has ideally thought through one’s decisions before. Before performances, rather than to practise, I prefer to read the score again. During performances, I don’t think much, as what I envisioned is fully internalised in my body and hands.
This is not to say I don’t improvise at all. In solo recitals, I can improvise. I had instances where I played slow movements slower or more flowing than how I had practised. However, concertos present a different story. Because there are others involved, one has to be more strict with oneself and curb one’s desires to improvise. Overall, concertos are like chamber music, but with more collaborators. In these occasions, I try to keep the tempo as agreed during rehearsals, because otherwise there will be a loss of coherence. However, when it comes to dynamics, nuances, phrasings, and timings, it is possible to improvise a bit, provided that I perform with an experienced conductor with whom I previously collaborated.
YH: Talking about you performing concertos, one can see that you collaborated with conductors who have been pianists or who have previously studied the piano. Myung-Whun Chung, Mikhail Pletnev, and even Mr. Noseda count as few of these individuals. Working together with those who have a working knowledge of the instrument you play, do these conductors give you a special sort of sympathy or understanding?
SC: Well, in the case of Mr. Chung and Mr. Pletnev, they were professional soloists. This means that they have also been in my current position. One thing that definitely differentiates these conductors from others, is that I become more anxious than the usual.
(both laugh)
Because these conductors know the piano so well, it feels like I am playing in front of teachers.
(both laugh)
But generally speaking, I don’t see a huge difference between playing with conductors who know the piano well and those who do not. The qualities involved in accompanying a solo pianist in concertos have little to do with one’s experience with the piano. I played with conductors who had specialised in the trumpet. In the case of Sir Simon Rattle, although he can also play the piano, he studied the timpani. Even then, Sir Rattle and I formed a strong musical partnership. Similarly, I had a good experience with Esa-Pekka Salonen, who never played the piano professionally. In the case of Lorin Maazel, although he was a violinist, he gave possibly the clearest instructions among all conductors I have worked with, so it was a huge pleasure to work with him. Based on these experiences, I don’t think a conductor’s personal experience with particular instruments is decisive. It’s just that I get nervous and pressured when it comes to those who know the piano well.
(both laugh)
YH: If you perform with such wonderful conductors, does it ever occur to you that you would like to try conducting one day?
SC: At that time, Mr. Haitink was approaching his 80s. I could feel his life through his music-making. In his interpretation, I could see how years of musical dedication can create an immense sense of depth. That depth, I think, can only be acquired with age. I was moved.
II.
YH: 6 years have passed, and now you return to the same hall as a performer with conductor Gianandrea Noseda. You seem to have a long history with Mr. Noseda. Last year, you made your BBC Proms debut with him. Not only did you and Mr. Noseda collaborate in various other concert occasions, but you two have also made recordings together. Does this mean that there is a strong sense of communication between you and Mr. Noseda?
SC: (with no hesitation) Yes. I always have much pleasure playing with Mr. Noseda. He conducts with incredible passion. His cues and body gestures tend to be large, perhaps because he is a tall person in general. In rehearsals, he is simply “amazing” [sic] (SC laughs). He has such a sensitive ear that he catches every rubato I make. When it comes to shaping the orchestra, he never allows himself to follow the flow or rely on the instincts of the moment. It is clear he has thought everything through, and he takes great care in balancing the orchestra's sonority. On the outside, he may be emotional, but everything is thought through. I was impressed by such ability of Mr. Noseda to be fastidious but still be so naturally emotional. That’s a wonderful advantage of working with him.
YH: The way Mr. Noseda balances thoughts and emotions… is that how you play the piano too?
SC: Most ideas are in the score already, so it is important to carefully study the score. In my performances, what is most crucial is to be confident. That confidence, in my opinion, comes from the certainty that I know the score more than anyone else. Sitting between the orchestra and the audience, I must be ready to say, “I know this score much more than all of you.” For this to happen, I have to carefully learn the score. For instance, if some dynamics markings are not taken into account because one wants to be different, such creativity should not come out from instinctive feelings. Rather, one should be able to explain why such liberties were taken, because one has ideally thought through one’s decisions before. Before performances, rather than to practise, I prefer to read the score again. During performances, I don’t think much, as what I envisioned is fully internalised in my body and hands.
This is not to say I don’t improvise at all. In solo recitals, I can improvise. I had instances where I played slow movements slower or more flowing than how I had practised. However, concertos present a different story. Because there are others involved, one has to be more strict with oneself and curb one’s desires to improvise. Overall, concertos are like chamber music, but with more collaborators. In these occasions, I try to keep the tempo as agreed during rehearsals, because otherwise there will be a loss of coherence. However, when it comes to dynamics, nuances, phrasings, and timings, it is possible to improvise a bit, provided that I perform with an experienced conductor with whom I previously collaborated.
III.
YH: Talking about you performing concertos, one can see that you collaborated with conductors who have been pianists or who have previously studied the piano. Myung-Whun Chung, Mikhail Pletnev, and even Mr. Noseda count as few of these individuals. Working together with those who have a working knowledge of the instrument you play, do these conductors give you a special sort of sympathy or understanding?
SC: Well, in the case of Mr. Chung and Mr. Pletnev, they were professional soloists. This means that they have also been in my current position. One thing that definitely differentiates these conductors from others, is that I become more anxious than the usual.
(both laugh)
Because these conductors know the piano so well, it feels like I am playing in front of teachers.
(both laugh)
But generally speaking, I don’t see a huge difference between playing with conductors who know the piano well and those who do not. The qualities involved in accompanying a solo pianist in concertos have little to do with one’s experience with the piano. I played with conductors who had specialised in the trumpet. In the case of Sir Simon Rattle, although he can also play the piano, he studied the timpani. Even then, Sir Rattle and I formed a strong musical partnership. Similarly, I had a good experience with Esa-Pekka Salonen, who never played the piano professionally. In the case of Lorin Maazel, although he was a violinist, he gave possibly the clearest instructions among all conductors I have worked with, so it was a huge pleasure to work with him. Based on these experiences, I don’t think a conductor’s personal experience with particular instruments is decisive. It’s just that I get nervous and pressured when it comes to those who know the piano well.
(both laugh)
YH: If you perform with such wonderful conductors, does it ever occur to you that you would like to try conducting one day?
SC: I don’t want to be a conductor per se. But it would be nice if I could try conducting an orchestra one day. I could conduct, for example, a Mozart concerto while I perform as soloist. I think a Chopin concerto could also work out. But I don’t think I have the right personality to be a professional conductor.
YH: And what kind of personality do you think ideally fits a professional conductor?
SC: When I see conductors during rehearsals, I often admire them. Conducting is not an easy job. One needs charisma to lead an orchestra but also needs to be friendly simultaneously. One shouldn’t be too arrogant… all in all, keeping a balanced personality seems crucial in being successful on the podium. If I were to conduct on the podium, I think I would be frightened.
(both laugh)
I think I can be a bit shy. If people start suggesting different ideas to me during rehearsals, I would simply reply all the time, “Yes sir, as you wish” [Note. SC used the formal and polite form of Korean grammar].
(both laugh)
So I would like to try conducting one-and-off concerts while playing the piano. But I cannot imagine taking up a proper conducting position or being in a position of big responsibilities.
YH: Before you’ve mentioned the importance of being confident in performances, but just now said that it’s important to not be too arrogant. How can one contain arrogance while maintaining a healthy degree of confidence? I can imagine there is a thin line between the two.
SC: Yes you’re right. During performances, I admit I occasionally force upon a self-image of confidence. By convincing myself of such confidence, I can settle my nerves on stage. When not on stage, I think there are several ways one can be arrogant, which is very different from such confidence. Some musicians think that their decisions are always right and that they are superior to others. These people tend to also pass judgements on what is good music and what is bad music. I find this attitude arrogant. Of course, some performers compose, but it is crucial to acknowledge the fact that without composers, performers cannot exist. There is a clear hierarchy, in other words. To ignore the intentions of composers or to think that performers are above composers is to be arrogant. I think it’s important to keep an open mind. For example, I enjoy listening to other performers’ interpretations.
Actually, a personal struggle I have is that whenever I listen to others perform, I feel they play so well. Comparatively, whenever I listen to my performances, I feel there is too much to improve.
YH: And what kind of personality do you think ideally fits a professional conductor?
SC: When I see conductors during rehearsals, I often admire them. Conducting is not an easy job. One needs charisma to lead an orchestra but also needs to be friendly simultaneously. One shouldn’t be too arrogant… all in all, keeping a balanced personality seems crucial in being successful on the podium. If I were to conduct on the podium, I think I would be frightened.
(both laugh)
I think I can be a bit shy. If people start suggesting different ideas to me during rehearsals, I would simply reply all the time, “Yes sir, as you wish” [Note. SC used the formal and polite form of Korean grammar].
(both laugh)
So I would like to try conducting one-and-off concerts while playing the piano. But I cannot imagine taking up a proper conducting position or being in a position of big responsibilities.
IV.
YH: Before you’ve mentioned the importance of being confident in performances, but just now said that it’s important to not be too arrogant. How can one contain arrogance while maintaining a healthy degree of confidence? I can imagine there is a thin line between the two.
SC: Yes you’re right. During performances, I admit I occasionally force upon a self-image of confidence. By convincing myself of such confidence, I can settle my nerves on stage. When not on stage, I think there are several ways one can be arrogant, which is very different from such confidence. Some musicians think that their decisions are always right and that they are superior to others. These people tend to also pass judgements on what is good music and what is bad music. I find this attitude arrogant. Of course, some performers compose, but it is crucial to acknowledge the fact that without composers, performers cannot exist. There is a clear hierarchy, in other words. To ignore the intentions of composers or to think that performers are above composers is to be arrogant. I think it’s important to keep an open mind. For example, I enjoy listening to other performers’ interpretations.
Actually, a personal struggle I have is that whenever I listen to others perform, I feel they play so well. Comparatively, whenever I listen to my performances, I feel there is too much to improve.
(both laugh)
YH: How frequently do you listen to your own performances?
SC: Not too frequently. But like in tonight’s concert where the entire performance is recorded, the organisers give me copies of the recorded performance afterwards. In such cases, I have a listen to my playing. The less satisfied I am about my performances, the more carefully I listen to them later.
YH: Are there examples of how you might feel dissatisfied with your own performances?
SC: For example, I can fail to control my excitement on stage. Therefore, sections that are meant to sing can break off in the middle... or certain impulses appear out to nowhere to damage the overall structure of a piece. The opposite can also be true, as I can play too timidly. So these are some things I focus on when I listen to my performances.
YH: Tonight you play Rachmaninov’s 2nd piano concerto, which is a very emotional piece. I can imagine you would have to show particular care in controlling your emotions.
SC: In the case of Rachmaninov’s 2nd piano concerto, the piece itself is already so romantic that to over-romanticise it could make the piece sound schmaltzy [Note. SC used a Korean word that denotes “greasy.” Whereas “schmaltz” represents a specific form of edible animal grease, the Korean expression of “greasy” is a commonly used adjective that can be used in any food experience that relates to being unpleasantly greasy.] For example, if you’re thirsty, the first drink of cold beer is like the experience of being in heaven. With the second drink, you’ve descended to the level of earth's surface. However, the third drink takes you down to the underground platform.
(both laugh)
So when it comes to the Rachmaninov, I don’t like pushing emotions constantly and too hard. Of course, some pianists play Rachmaninov’s concertos romantically, ruggedly, and powerfully, and I have respect for those who play the concertos like this. But the Rachmaninov recordings I return to most are Rachmaninov’s own performances. In these recordings, Rachmaninov displays a style that is flowing, lithe, and full of feelings. Of course, he adopted tempos that may be too rapid, but I find myself studying his ideas of phrasings.
V.
YH: You’ve said that you like to hold back some emotions during performances. Is this why many critics call your playing “poetic”? Do you agree with this assessment?
(SC laughs)
SC: What others say about my performances may accurately reflect some aspects of my playing style, but I cannot say I ever intend to sound “poetic.” If I may put it differently, there are times when I receive bad reviews, but I never intend to play badly. I think an instrumentalist’s unique sound is like the human voice. Everyone has a unique voice given to them, regardless of their intentions. For example, a tenor can never be a bass. Of course, I can force myself to perform wearing my heart of my sleeve, but this would not change who I fundamentally am. Everyone has a natural way of performing, and I play in my given way. I think audiences have been able to sense that personality.
YH: Could this natural personality also influence one’s repertoire? Are there pieces that you think fit your personality very well, but that you are too afraid to approach yet?
SC: It could be the case that two decades later, I could look back at my current performances and think that I was not prepared to play certain pieces. At the moment, I don’t have pieces I think I am not prepared to play. But there are pieces I think I can play better. Regarding pieces I enjoy listening to but don’t feel confident enough to play… Stravinsky’s Petrushka stands out. Actually, I think it’s more that I have no reason to play it (SC laughs). There are numerous wonderful recordings of Petrushka out there. Although I enjoy listening to the piece very much, I don’t feel the need to play this.
(both laugh)
YH: I suppose there is also the awkwardness of a soloist being stuck in the middle of a giant orchestra in a piece where the piano is not necessarily prominent. But then again, if there is something one truly likes, one will end up doing it somehow at one point. Who knows what will happen in life!
SC: Yes, I agree.
(both laugh)
VI.
YH: I will go onto a topic I almost feel I have a duty to bring up, namely your winning of the 2015 International Chopin Piano Competition. Since the competition, you experienced a soar of popularity. Do you think the popularity influenced your playing in some ways?
SC: Do you mean in Korea or in general?
YH: In general.
SC: No, I cannot say I was influenced by the public interest much. I always knew that sell-out concerts as a result of my popularity would never last forever. So I didn’t think much about my popularity. Immediately following the competition, I was in a situation where I had to make many decisions. I had a swarm of requests from management organisations and recording companies, and I had to make quick decisions regarding attendances at interviews, TV programmes, and commercials.
When I met Krystian Zimerman, he advised that I trust my instincts, but he warned against money taking priority in determining these decisions. For this reason, I rejected all commercial requests. Overall, because of Krystian Zimerman’s words, these decisions stopped troubling me. I focused all my decisions based on my career and performance-related outcomes. So coming back to your question, I don’t feel that the popularity influenced how I wanted to perform and what I wanted to be as a musician.
YH: How did you adapt to your popularity in Korea, where you experienced stardom? Even if your performance remained intact, surely your everyday life in Korea would have been transformed. Were you able to walk around in public spaces freely?
SC: Ah, it’s become better these days. When I was in Korea back in February 2016 for a concert, many people, including waiters at restaurants, recognised me. So that was a bit uncomfortable. In Paris, numerous Korean tourists would approach me, even when I would be standing in line to catch a taxi. Whenever I was asked if I am Seong-Jin Cho, I would say “No, but many people mistake me for him.” Since then, this has become something of a routine line for me to get away from similar situations.
(both laugh)
YH: Regarding such mishaps, is there a story that stands out?
SC: There are some occasions where I am cornered as who I really am, for example, when I am talking about music at length with my personal manager. It's inevitable I am Seong-Jin Cho (SC laughs). If there are people who are close enough to overhear our conversation, they would often approach me, asking me if I am Seong-Jin Cho. Such behaviour made me quite uncomfortable. Still, I prefer if people ask. Once, I held a conversation with someone who pretended to not know me. During the conversation, I was very comfortable. I regret having had such a comfortable chat because when the person revealed afterwards that the person knew who I was, I was anxious I may have revealed too much of myself (SC laughs). I could have talked about very personal things. These days, unless I am near Seoul Arts Center, I rarely get approached.
YH: Ah I see. Perhaps I can talk to you today because you’re less in demand these days, comparatively of course!
(both laugh)
You mentioned your personal life. In your day-to-day life, do you make a strict distinction between everyday life and musical life? Or do you live a life where everything is related to music?
SC: I don’t think I make a distinction. I rarely consider music as work. That’s why even in times when I do not play the piano, I immerse myself in music by listening to music and reading books about music. After all, I like music, and I consider myself lucky that I am able to professionally do what I enjoy.
YH: I see. And when you are back home, how does the son Seong-Jin Cho differ from the musician Seong-Jin Cho?
SC: My parents don’t know much about music. When I broke the news to my mother the first time I was invited to play at the Carnegie Hall, her reply was, “Is that a good invitation?”
(both laugh)
I also had to explain to my mother that the Berliner Philharmoniker is one of the most famous orchestras in the world. Nowadays, she knows more about the classical music world.
YH: That’s astonishing!
SC: I think I grew up with a lot of freedom. No one, including my family, ever pushed me to practise. So in this sense, I am ordinary when I am with my family. I am an only child, so I spend a lot of time with cousins. There is nothing out of the ordinary in my everyday life.
VII.
YH: I will now ask a few quick questions. You said earlier that you enjoy going to museums. What kind of artworks do you like, and what attracts you to these works?
SC: I don’t know visual arts too well. But I enjoy being in museums. In a museum, I can clear my mind while focusing on the artworks I see. I especially like it when museums have good architecture. While I like all sorts of visual arts, I prefer visual arts to sculptures. Among visual artworks, I enjoy Baroque paintings, especially those in Amsterdam’s Rijksmuseum. Rembrandt is particularly wonderful there. In Paris, I have seen far too many Impressionism paintings, at Musée d'Orsay, for example! (SC laughs) In Berlin, too, there are several good modern art museums. There, I am especially fond of works by Paul Klee and René Magritte.
YH: That takes me back to my high school years. I gave a presentation on Magritte, and I am still a big fan of the Belgian painter. But I shouldn't digress, as we're running out of time (YH laughs). Taking a step back, do you have a life philosophy?
SC: I have already said similar things in past interviews… I think my life philosophy is, “Don’t think too much.” I would like to be free from overthinking. Also, whatever you do, you have to be happy. Everyone has a different understanding of happiness. Let’s say there is a musician who plays 300 concerts per year. I would look at that musician and think I would never be happy if I were to undertake such a busy schedule. But for that person, such lifestyle might bring immense happiness. So it’s important to find happiness one can relate to, and one should not judge others using one’s own standards. For this to happen, I think it is important to understand what and how one can be happy. That’s why happiness is an important aspect of my life.
YH: Lastly, how would you like to be remembered as a musician?
SC: I just want to be remembered.
(both laugh)
YH: That’s a wonderful answer. With that, I hope your performance tonight will be in the memories of many. Thank you.
SC: Thank you.
 |
| Seong-Jin Cho, © Holger Hage |
Young-Jin Hur
@yjhur1885