INTERVIEW | Edward Gardner | "whether I perform a piece or not is a matter of whether I have something new to bring"
In conversation with Edward Gardner
Online interview on 30 August 2023
Online interview on 30 August 2023
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| Edward Gardner, © Benjamin Ealovega |
The ascent of Edward Gardner defies the received notion of a successful career. At the age of 49, Gardner has already put under his belt the experience of being the music director of the English National Opera and the principal conductor of the Bergen Philharmonic Orchestra (the latter tenure is to conclude at the end of the 2023/2024 season). Currently the principal conductor of the London Philharmonic Orchestra (LPO), he is set to become the music director of the Norwegian National Opera and Ballet in August 2024.
To exactly what one may attribute such ongoing success will in no way reveal a simple trail. For life is multivariate, there are multiple factors that lead to multiple, interrelated outcomes - and, of course, nothing is guaranteed along the way. Fortunately, truths are often revealed in more general observations. Thus, Gardner has always been a musician of curiosity, individuality, and hard work, and to these characteristics may we start to picture the events in the life of Gardner.
These qualities were reflected in my conversation with the conductor, who, in his busy schedule, was able to accommodate a 30-minute interview. The conversation covered a wide range of topics, from the importance of well-being in the industry, current reading list, Mahler and Bruckner, conducting personalities, big recording projects, playing the standard repertoire, the differences in conducting operas and symphonies, and, last but not least, his plans and expectations for his upcoming visit to Korea.
What especially emerged throughout the chat was Gardner's distinct sense of humility and self-knowledge. There was an openness to learning guided by an insight into what is achievable and worth achieving. In this view of taking things step-by-step whilst being cognizant of greater surrounding forces, one could glimpse into the graceful repose of Gardner the person as well as the musician.
Below is a transcript of our conversation. Minor edits have been made to improve readability.
[Note. All interviews on the website are approved by the interviewees prior to publication.]
I.
Young-Jin Hur (YH): Hello Mr. Edward Gardner. It's a pleasure to have you as a guest. Thank you very much for making time today.
YH: You mentioned that you started off your recording career by recording lesser-known Polish and British composers.
EG: It was actually mainly Polish music. I began my relationship with Chandos by recording the complete orchestral works of Lutosławski and Szymanowski, especially Lutosławski. Lutosławski is a hero to me and I think he is a unique genius in the history of 20th century music.
YH: Was there a specific reason why you recorded these Polish composers?
EG: I just felt that I didn't want to do anything too mainstream. And in the 1990s, Simon Rattle did a whole series of Szymanowski recordings... and when I heard a performance of Król Roger by Szymanowski at the BBC Proms, I couldn't believe the sound world that was created. There is this sort of exoticism, beauty, and sensuality that are unique in post-Chopin Poland... and I realised that it's music that I really adore and feel. That was the start of the journey, so it felt right to start recording some of that country's music.
YH: It may be a bit of an odd question, but did performing so much Polish music change your general perceptions of Poland as a country and culture?
EG: I mean, I have a lot of Polish friends that I have performed with, and I know many others, but yes, definitely. In all seriousness, I think Poland could become one of the great new classical music hubs in Europe and the world. I find people there to be so culturally engaged and the people there feel that culture is an essential part of their being. Dare I say, in the UK, it's not like that at the moment. I feel like we may be all going to Poland in the future for our best concert experiences.
(both laugh)
YH: What do you think is going wrong in the UK?
EG: I mean, where to start with that question. It's a critical fact that there is no music education within schools. There's a whole strata of culture which isn't projected onto the next generation, so many people don't have an idea what classical music is. We're coming out of some years of lack of government support. In terms of enabling what we do as musicians, it doesn't feel like a level playing field compared to other countries around Europe.
YH: That is a shame, given that the UK has such a long classical music tradition. What kind of solution can there be to the current state of things?
EG: I think we need to speak up for ourselves. And we need to show - although we are showing already - on a weekly basis how good the quality of our music-making is. And we should rebuff the myth that concerts are expensive... because they aren't! Concerts are incredibly well-priced to what people get, especially compared to various sports events.
YH: Sports events are indeed very expensive.
EG: We are in a populist era. Excellence is dangerous, isn't it? Politicians need to talk about big achievements. Hopefully, in the future, we won't be so worried about populism and we'll be able to rejoice in things for them just being completely wonderful in themselves.
(both laugh)
YH: That makes sense. You also mentioned education. Thankfully, we see more of more of these public music education concerts. If I remember correctly, you'll be performing the Firebird Suite with the LPO for an event for kids. That is a great initiative.
EG: Exactly. And the LPO do those things so well. It was a thrill performing Britten last year. To see all those young kids going to their first concert and just loving the concert... this was a huge inspiration to me.
YH: Why was this particular piece selected for this kids' event, if I may ask?
EG: Firebird has such a cartoonish, Disney-like subject. And the music is so virtuosic and immediately gettable that I think it's the perfect piece for such an event.
[Note. With violinist Sarah Chang, I briefly discussed the importance of education in classical music. See the full conversation here.]
Young-Jin Hur
Edward Gardner (EG): It's my pleasure.
YH: How are you today?
EG: I'm great, thank you. We're getting the season off to an intense start. I've just been recording a disc with Sheku Kanneh-Mason. In October, I will be flying to Korea with the LPO to perform there.
EG: Well, I would say there are a few answers to that. In Bergen, this will be my final season, and we wanted to do something that was a big statement. And I had opened my first season there with Mahler's first symphony. So we thought it would be a really beautiful thing to play the first symphony again after the journey we've had together - we'd be coming back to the piece and just see how we developed. So that was the main reason behind the decision to start the season with Mahler in Bergen.
EG: I'm great, thank you. We're getting the season off to an intense start. I've just been recording a disc with Sheku Kanneh-Mason. In October, I will be flying to Korea with the LPO to perform there.
YH: Very nice. How did the recording session go?
EG: It was fantastic. We just finished. The schedule of the LPO is so intense that we're now going off to do some concerts in Germany tomorrow and on Friday. Once one project stops, something new starts straight away.
(both laugh)
YH: Actually, I've always been curious about the summer schedules of musicians. For non-musicians like myself, we have the opportunity to break off from work during summer. But for musicians like yourself, summer seems to be the time for intense schedules such as recording projects and festivals like the BBC Proms. So my question is, how do musicians balance between work and leisure in summer?
EG: That's a very good question. I think you need a lot of self-care in this profession. I think you just have to take it upon yourself to make sure you are well-rested before the season starts again in September. In London, musicians, as you know, work tirelessly. They work on different levels of schedules and on different batteries compared to musicians anywhere else around the world.
(both laugh)
YH: You mentioned self-care. What kind of self-care routines do you take part in, if there are any?
EG: My big thing when I'm not working is that I don't travel. It's strange - it's different from your normal person. The ideal scenario is not to have to visit an airport for three weeks and just stay at home - and not even get in the car. That's how I rest. It's always a really good sign of my well-being if I'm really into reading. That's a summer pursuit. I really read books voraciously in the summer but it's harder to do so in the rest of the year. But that's a really clear sign to me that my brain is relaxed.
YH: Yes, flights can be quite exhausting. But if this is the case, how do you manage international tours, like the one you will be embarking on soon in Korea?
EG: Doing big trips such as a high-profile tour around Germany or the trip I will be making to Korea is just so exciting that you just make sure your energy is in the right place for you to enjoy the experience. I am especially excited about Korea because it's my first time there. But it's more the day-to-day hopping around European airports... that's the bit that kills you.
EG: Doing big trips such as a high-profile tour around Germany or the trip I will be making to Korea is just so exciting that you just make sure your energy is in the right place for you to enjoy the experience. I am especially excited about Korea because it's my first time there. But it's more the day-to-day hopping around European airports... that's the bit that kills you.
(both laugh)
YH: I think I know what you mean. At the same time, I can imagine that for a trip like to Korea, the jetlag can be quite menacing.
EG: It is, yes. I'm quite susceptible to jetlag. But it's especially a thrill to visit Korea, so I'm not worried. I'm a huge fan of Korean culture and my wife is half Korean herself - she's never been to Korea and she's coming with me. So all things considered, it's really going to be a thrill to experience the culture and especially visit the city of Seoul.
YH: It's really great to hear. I had no idea you have a wife who is half-Korean. I hope you'll have a great time.
EG: Yes, I'm looking forward to the visit.
YH: Now, you mentioned books earlier as an activity you do for relaxation. May I ask what kind of books you're reading nowadays?
EG: Historical fiction has always been a big thing for me... let's say semi-fiction. I've been reading a book called The Wager by David Grann, which is just fantastic. I do read a wide range and I like to have a novel on the go. I just read Julian Barnes' latest one. In one of his other books, he references a very old figure in Christianity that I knew nothing about. So I ended up getting a biography of this figure. So I go down wormholes.
(both laugh)
YH: That's wonderful to hear. By coincidence, I recently saw the film The Name of the Rose, which is based on Umberto Eco's famous novel. Would this be the type of literature you're interested in?
EG: Yeah, I remember that. You're absolutely right - I love Umberto Eco.
II.
YH: Once summer is over, you will be launching the seasons for both the Bergen Philharmonic Orchestra and the LPO (EG nods). I couldn't help noticing that you are opening both seasons with Mahler. Why Mahler?
As with the LPO, I want to rebuild the tradition of doing Mahler as a regular staple and have Mahler part of the orchestra's DNA. I mean, Mahler is really in them historically. I grew up on the Klaus Tennstedt recordings from the 80s, so I think that's a real pleasure. You'll be seeing a lot more Mahler with the LPO and me.
YH: Ah, I was just about to mention Klaus Tennstedt when you mentioned the LPO's Mahler tradition.
YH: Ah, I was just about to mention Klaus Tennstedt when you mentioned the LPO's Mahler tradition.
(both laugh)
YH: I understand Tennstedt once said that the LPO was London's preeminent Romantic orchestra. I wonder if you share that sentiment.
EG: I think the LPO has a wonderful soul, and I love the sound of the orchestra from his era. Actually, I think about that a lot when I'm rehearsing because the LPO did have a beautiful, lush Romantic quality. And we work on that a lot now as well. So yes, I think there's something there. If you ask the orchestra who the composers closest to their heart were, they'd probably say Mahler and Brahms.
EG: I think the LPO has a wonderful soul, and I love the sound of the orchestra from his era. Actually, I think about that a lot when I'm rehearsing because the LPO did have a beautiful, lush Romantic quality. And we work on that a lot now as well. So yes, I think there's something there. If you ask the orchestra who the composers closest to their heart were, they'd probably say Mahler and Brahms.
What I also find interesting about Tennstedt's Mahler recordings is that they haven't dated at all. Whereas the recordings by many of Tennstedt's contemporaries from the 70s to the 90s really give the feeling that it's music from a different era, there is something universal about Tennstedt's music-making, which I love.
YH: I couldn't agree more. Now to further delve into your relationship with Mahler, I dug up an interview that you gave nine years ago, where you expressed your admiration towards Mahler. While it's clear that you still admire the composer, I wonder if there are things you see in Mahler differently compared to nine years ago.
EG: I mean, it's still a sort of work in progress for me. I would say I'm very humbled in the face of it, having spent a lot of the first part of my career doing opera. In a way, it's so great to get your first performances of Mahler symphonies under your belt early on. Because then you can make your mistakes early and then repair them over the next decade.
(both laugh)
EG: In some ways, I am behind. There are still two or three Mahler symphonies I never conducted. I'm taking my journey steadily and I'm only playing pieces I really trust I have a way into. I'll build up my Mahler repertoire over the rest of my career for sure.
YH: Sure. Regarding those Mahler symphonies that you haven't performed yet, are there reasons why you haven't touched them yet?
EG: I don't know if this is something that you can put into words easily. But I am at a stage of my career where I wouldn't just want to do these pieces to try them out for the sake of trying them out. So I would really have to believe I have something to bring. For example, I am playing Mahler's eight symphony at Bergen as my closing concert in Bergen - and that is a piece I feel strongly about. But yes, I'm just careful that I'm not doing something for the sake of it.
III.
YH: To be rather clichéd, A composer who usually gets paired together with Mahler is Anton Bruckner. If I may again refer to the interview you gave nine years ago, you expressed admiration towards Bruckner then as well. Has your view towards Bruckner changed much over the years?
EG: Not so much. I've done his fourth symphony and am planning to do his seventh and eight symphonies. But I'm coming to his music quite slowly in a way. It's just fantastic music... and, like Mahler, Bruckner is a composer who is central to the LPO traditions very much. There are many of his symphonies I would love to do in the future, but I will say what I said when I talked about Mahler; whether I perform a piece or not is a matter of whether I have something new to bring.
YH: Ah, I see. As you are a conductor who likes both Bruckner and Mahler, I wonder what you think about the view that conductors who conduct Mahler don't often conduct Bruckner, and vice versa. I can think of conductors such as Berstein, Günter Wand, and Karl Böhm, who seem to fit into this division pretty well. This is something I often think about and I'm curious if you think there is a truth to this view.
EG: I think you're absolutely right. I think you either have an affinity with those big and structured building blocks of a Bruckner symphony or with the fluidity and this sort of emotional immediacy of a Mahler symphony. I think that division is true. I think not one conductor can do everything. Different people suit different repertoires. I think the choice between Mahler and Bruckner is a really good distinction. In a way, that's the most clear example of differing conductor personalities.
YH: What do you exactly mean by differing conductor personalities?
EG: Conductors require a different personality to produce what they do. In Bruckner, there is something about that central stillness in the music that you want to build from. Comparatively, Mahler is all about syringing out as much emotion as you can.... whatever way you feel it.
(both laugh)
EG: Putting into words like that, it does feel like Bruckner and Mahler are completely different musical personalities.
YH: I agree with you. I'm also glad that you mention the stillness in Bruckner. Bruckner's symphonies may have multiple orchestral outbursts but put all of them together for a long period of time, the overall picture is that there's more serenity than tumult. If a single orchestral unison can be seen as the rough cliffs of a single mountain, going through an entire Bruckner symphony is the experience of calmness upon seeing a landscape of mountains.
EG: Yes. Or even buttresses on a cathedral. When I think about Bruckner's music, I often think about that sort of architecture, like cathedrals, which have been built up from the bottom for 100 years.
YH: That also makes sense. When I did my research before this interview, I wasn't able to find much on you performing Bruckner in the past. Am I mistaken?
EG: It's true. I haven't yet done too much Bruckner. Referring back to my previous answer, I feel it's music that I need to know more and build up an affinity with. I would say I'm more ready to go to Mahler for now.
[Note. Discussions about Bruckner and/or Mahler were prominent themes in many of my past interviews. To see these discussions, please read my conversations with, for example, Semyon Bychkov, Jakub Hrůša, Ádám Fischer, Nikolai Lugansky, Philippe Herreweghe, and Seong-Jin Cho.]
IV.
YH: I'd now like to talk a bit about your recordings. You've been very prolific with making recordings, and you've recently, for example, recorded all symphonies and major orchestral works of Felix Mendelssohn. When you record for these big projects where recording all the symphonies of a composer is part of the package, do you sometimes feel that you are forced into playing and recording pieces that aren't necessarily close to your heart? After all, you did mention earlier in the case of Mahler that you are quite selective.
EG: I think I wouldn't have chosen any of these composers if I didn't know that I had something to bring to all their pieces. I mean... let's say with Mendelssohn, for example, the first symphony is harder than all the others put together. I had some reservations about the Victorian quality of the second symphony. But to explore a composer's complete output is such an intoxicating thing to do. You find yourself carried along by similarities between the pieces of a composer, and you follow the development of a composer's life. You also think about biographical changes that possibly enhanced or inflicted their music. So I think the projects are such a privilege to do. But I don't feel any nervousness towards any individual pieces - the nervousness kind of gets washed away.
YH: I see. Talking about nervousness, do you ever get nervous knowing that some of the symphonies you are recording have already been recorded many times before?
EG: I think you have to trust that your personality and your connection with the orchestra will bring something unique to a recording.
When I started recording in my career, I was very careful. I didn't start mainstream - I recorded a lot of Polish music and lesser-known British music. And it's only in the last years, when I've built up this relationship with the Bergen Philharmonic Orchestra, that I dared to do Brahms symphonies, for instance.
I mean, you talk about Mendelssohn as a popular composer, but I think he deserves another good set of symphonies.
(both laugh)
EG: To record Mendelssohn in Birmingham Town Hall, where the composer had actually played the organ and performed his own symphonies, was a joy. You could feel him in the air.
YH: Ah, that makes sense. Was there a specific quality within the Bergen Philharmonic Orchestra that made you attempt for Brahms?
EG: Uhm... we could have a whole interview just on Brahms (EG laughs), and on the sound and structure people are looking for in Brahms. But I think there's sort of an almost unhealthy obsession in our world about how Brahms must sound. Whenever anyone tells me something definitive, I immediately rail against it because I don't feel that that's the spontaneity and freedom necessary in music. But with the Bergen Philharmonic Orchestra, I found that they had a wonderful depth of sound but also chamber music-like quality. And those are the two things I love in Brahms' music, so the music never feels like it's just heavy, heavy, music. Brahms' music can fly as well whilst maintaining a beautiful sound.
YH: The Bergen Philharmonic Orchestra sounds like an incredible orchestra to play with. Do you think that you were able to develop the sound of the orchestra during your tenure there as principal conductor?
EG: I think so... it's so hard to say these things when you're in the middle of it. Certainly, we understand and trust each other a lot more than before. The orchestra also immediately know what I am looking for, now that we have been together for nine years.
V.
EG: It was actually mainly Polish music. I began my relationship with Chandos by recording the complete orchestral works of Lutosławski and Szymanowski, especially Lutosławski. Lutosławski is a hero to me and I think he is a unique genius in the history of 20th century music.
YH: Was there a specific reason why you recorded these Polish composers?
EG: I just felt that I didn't want to do anything too mainstream. And in the 1990s, Simon Rattle did a whole series of Szymanowski recordings... and when I heard a performance of Król Roger by Szymanowski at the BBC Proms, I couldn't believe the sound world that was created. There is this sort of exoticism, beauty, and sensuality that are unique in post-Chopin Poland... and I realised that it's music that I really adore and feel. That was the start of the journey, so it felt right to start recording some of that country's music.
YH: It may be a bit of an odd question, but did performing so much Polish music change your general perceptions of Poland as a country and culture?
EG: I mean, I have a lot of Polish friends that I have performed with, and I know many others, but yes, definitely. In all seriousness, I think Poland could become one of the great new classical music hubs in Europe and the world. I find people there to be so culturally engaged and the people there feel that culture is an essential part of their being. Dare I say, in the UK, it's not like that at the moment. I feel like we may be all going to Poland in the future for our best concert experiences.
(both laugh)
YH: What do you think is going wrong in the UK?
EG: I mean, where to start with that question. It's a critical fact that there is no music education within schools. There's a whole strata of culture which isn't projected onto the next generation, so many people don't have an idea what classical music is. We're coming out of some years of lack of government support. In terms of enabling what we do as musicians, it doesn't feel like a level playing field compared to other countries around Europe.
YH: That is a shame, given that the UK has such a long classical music tradition. What kind of solution can there be to the current state of things?
EG: I think we need to speak up for ourselves. And we need to show - although we are showing already - on a weekly basis how good the quality of our music-making is. And we should rebuff the myth that concerts are expensive... because they aren't! Concerts are incredibly well-priced to what people get, especially compared to various sports events.
YH: Sports events are indeed very expensive.
EG: We are in a populist era. Excellence is dangerous, isn't it? Politicians need to talk about big achievements. Hopefully, in the future, we won't be so worried about populism and we'll be able to rejoice in things for them just being completely wonderful in themselves.
(both laugh)
YH: That makes sense. You also mentioned education. Thankfully, we see more of more of these public music education concerts. If I remember correctly, you'll be performing the Firebird Suite with the LPO for an event for kids. That is a great initiative.
EG: Exactly. And the LPO do those things so well. It was a thrill performing Britten last year. To see all those young kids going to their first concert and just loving the concert... this was a huge inspiration to me.
YH: Why was this particular piece selected for this kids' event, if I may ask?
EG: Firebird has such a cartoonish, Disney-like subject. And the music is so virtuosic and immediately gettable that I think it's the perfect piece for such an event.
VI.
YH: I'd now like to ask another question regarding your recordings. In more recent recordings, I can see that you recorded a number of Nordic composers (EG nods). Do you think that your particular role in Bergen gravitated you more towards these composers, to the degree that if wasn't for your Bergen post, you might not have looked into these composers?
EG: Unquestionably. I would say this the the case, especially for Grieg and maybe Nielsen as well. I think those two composers come so easily to the orchestra and they adore playing them. That was a lovely journey. Of course, Sibelius is in any British conductor's repertoire. I think it's funny how in England, we've always been supporters of Nordic music. Generally speaking, I think British musicians understand this sort of slightly limited, singular musical traditions - we have a feeling towards places like Norway, Denmark, Finland, and, dare I say, Poland. These cultures are not one of these central European behemoths of repertoire and cannon. It feels like the music in these cultures is a little bit more precious... like our own music.
YH: How interesting! It also feels like the Nordic and British cultures share something in terms of how people act and behave. In both cultures, if I may dare generalise so grossly, people tend towards reservation and politeness. Maybe it has something to do with the weather, who knows (YH laughs).
EG: True, true. Yes, I can imagine that. Both cultures are a bit less Mediterranean perhaps. Our personalities are determined by cold weather in some ways.
(both laugh)
YH: Talking about your experience with Nordic cultures, you are set to be the music director of the Norwegian National Opera and Ballet. Before I ask you further questions, I first would like to congratulate you on this post.
EG: Thank you.
YH: When it comes to conducting operas, I suppose the difficulties arising from preparing and playing operas differ from the challenges of preparing symphonies.
EG: Very much. Fundamentally, with an orchestral performance, you're putting together a programme in a couple of days. But if you're doing opera, especially if you have a position in an opera house, you're often thinking about the pieces you will be playing three years in advance. You will be looking at stage direction two years in advance, and you'll be casting the singers two or three years in advance. So the process is so long. After all this, even when you are in the rehearsal room, you need five or six weeks before you reach the gestation point. So opera performances require a completely different rhythm. For me, I need both worlds of symphonies and operas. I need the quick-fire quality of symphony orchestras and I also need that slow-burn quality of opera in my life. I think the two side by side are a wonderful combination.
YH: That's very insightful. I can just imagine that there are so many things to consider when preparing for operas. As you said, you have to simultaneously think about the stage, the acting, the voice, and the orchestra. Do you ever get overwhelmed by the influx of information when preparing for operas?
EG: Yes, yes. I do actually. There's so much that can go wrong - it's amazing that it doesn't more often.
(both laugh)
EG: I think so much of your job is to centre everything happening in the room... the drama, the set, the orchestra, the children's choir, the off-stage musicians, etc. It's a big centring job. It's hard work and it doesn't always come off - and I think that fragility is also what's beautiful. Opera has the possibility of being the greatest art form ever created... but it can also not be that good when it doesn't work.
(both laugh)
EG: I think that source of fragility really appeals to me.
YH: I have never conducted an opera, or any other piece of music for that matter, but I think I can see where you are coming from. In the long run, would you like to be remembered as an operatic conductor or as a symphonic conductor?
EG: I don't know. I don't think I can really answer that.
(both laugh)
EG: It's whatever people want to remember me as. For now, I don't worry about legacies.
[Note. With conductor Philippe Herreweghe, I discussed the differences between conducting symphonies and vocal music. See the full conversation here.]
YH: You're right. You are still very young as a conductor. Do you think the direction of your career is going in the right direction so far?
EG: Yes. I don't worry too much about how it seems from the outside. I just know that I am in a position where I can really develop what I do until the end of my career. That is a beautiful thing to say, isn't it? But I know that I am going to get better through the next decade (EG laughs). That's what I think about mainly... to conduct pieces better, to have a better psychological connection with orchestras. Along the way, you meet a lot of people in the orchestra and make friends. I love the people I work with and feel very lucky to be working where I work.
YH: That's amazing. I don't think many people can say what you said.
EG: Yes. It's a privilege.
YH: I have one final question. You mentioned earlier about being excited about visiting Korea. Do you have any plans to do things beyond music while you are in Korea?
EG: Yeah, eat a lot. My wife and I are both huge fans of Korean food and culture. I'd love to get to know the city and see the food markets. I'd also love to see the popular culture actually - I would love to see different types of concerts of South Korean music. And I just watched an amazing film called Cast Away in the Moon. I don't know if you've seen that Korean film.
YH: Unfortunately, I haven't.
EG: It's all set on a little island within the city of Seoul underneath a motorway overpass. It's such a beautiful film. And I'm going to visit this little island I think as well.
(both laugh)
YH: That sounds fantastic. It is a shame that I won't be in Korea while you are there. I could have shown you some places.
EG: I would have loved that. That would have been fantastic.
YH: With that, I've gone through all the questions I wanted to ask you.
EG: Great. Lovely, lovely to chat. And a really nice interview. Thank you very much.
YH: Thank you. And thank you for making time today. I hope you have a lovely flight to Germany.
EG: Thank you very much. Talk to you soon.
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| Edward Gardner, © Benjamin Ealovega |
Young-Jin Hur
@yjhur1885
© Where Cherries Ripen / Young-Jin Hur