INTERVIEW | Seong-Jin Cho (Series 2, Part 1) | "I perform a piece when I know I can bring something new to it"
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Music's profundity perpetuates through means of record keeping. Be it through prints of sheet music or sound records - and although no means of recording can ever retain the original artistry in its pure essence - it is only through these records that the legacy of music lives on. One may wonder: how can that which is not retained be represented? Can what is transient, nested in time, attain permanence? And to what degree can all be justified by the sanctuary of personal experience, untranslatable beyond the self's own satisfaction? One way or another, the act of recording in music accompanies gravity if not a sense of necessity.
To the musician, the carving of a studio recording is also a deeply personal concern. After all, a studio recording is the painstaking engraving of a honed craft at one point in time and of that time only. Some, most notably Sergiu Celibidache and Grigory Sokolov, have gone as far as to denounce it entirely (although we still have the curious case of Glenn Gould, who, conversely, confined himself to the recording studio towards the end of his career). Unquestionably, both a finished vinyl and its consumers merely scratch the surface of a titanic musical effort.
Confronted with the mysticism of the recording process (aided gladly by my passion for collecting music CDs), I conversed with Seong-Jin Cho in May to discuss his experience with the recording process. Specifically, we talked about his most recent studio recording made in collaboration with Matthias Goerne, his upcoming all-Chopin album (to be released internationally on the 27th of August, 2021; Deutsche Grammophon), and his general views on recordings. We also conversed on how his life has been since the time I interviewed him last year in Berlin, and on the international careers of young Korean musicians.
Below is a transcript of our conversation.
I.
Young-Jin Hur (YH): Good afternoon. It's a pleasure to see
you again. How are you today?
Seong-Jin Cho (SC): Hello, it's good to see you too. I am
having an ordinary day without anything too unusual... as per usual (SC
laughs).
YH: Something tells me that what you call an ordinary day for yourself might not be quite ordinary for others (YH
laughs).
SC: That is possible. I suppose my life looks rather
different from those who have normal office jobs.
YH: True. Speaking of myself, I am now calling you after I delivered a set of lectures at my university. An ordinary day for me no doubt would look different from an ordinary day for you or for others. I wonder what we mean by "an ordinary day." In any case, I didn't call you today to discuss my career or the nature of the ordinary. So let us not linger here...
(both laugh)
YH: Have you mostly been in Berlin during the pandemic?
SC: Yes, that is correct. More recently, I was lucky to have been able to
perform abroad, for example in Russian and in Hungary. The former was a live concert in front of an audience, which was great. But I was in Berlin during most of the pandemic.
YH: Do you have chances to perform in front of audiences in Germany nowadays?
SC: While the COVID19 situation is improving in Germany, I
don't think we are ready for live concerts with an audience just yet. That said, I
have some June concert schedules - let's see how they turn out.
YH: What will these June concerts be about?
SC: In early June, I play Beethoven’s second piano concerto
in Salzburg with Camerata Salzburg. I think there will be an audience at this
concert. Afterwards, I will be attending Klavier-Festival Ruhr in Germany,
but probably without an audience. In Dortmund, I have a recital planned with
Matthias Goerne. I also have something planned in Koeln. At the end of June, I
have a concert at Berlin’s Philharmonie with Kent Nagano and the Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin. Given that this last with Kent Nagano concert takes place at the end of
June, I hope this concert can be played in front of an audience.
YH: I can imagine that having a live audience would make
a difference.
SC: There's a huge difference. Concerts with and without an audience are
two entirely different experiences.
YH: I guess you’re not just referring to differences
in acoustics or similar physical factors, but also to your psychological state
as a performer.
SC: Yes. Over the past year and a half, I’ve done a number
of online live concerts without audiences. I felt that the
experience was rather odd. This was the case when I performed in Salzburg,
Budapest, or in Berlin. Before COVID19, I don’t think I ever played publicly
without anyone in front of me. It is eerie to play live in an empty hall - something that should be there isn't there. It is as if I get in a car and the steering
wheel is missing.
YH: And perhaps no brakes as well. Or maybe the brakes are there, given that you can stop playing if that were your intentions.
(both laugh)
YH: Our last interview took place in Berlin in early 2020. I think we conversed for two to three hours in total. Did you have a chance to read the published interviews by any chance?
SC: Yes (SC smiles).
YH: So… what did you think of them?
SC: I think you polished the conversation very well when you translated our chat into English.
(both laugh)
YH: It shouldn’t surprise you that our present conversation in Korean will also be published in English. Let's just say I will do what I do best - I will make us look beautiful.
(both laugh)
SC: It’s like wearing makeup.
(both laugh)
[Note. My comment on my role in beautifying our conversation is an obvious exaggeration. As is the case with all my previously published interviews, the conversation's contents are not distorted. If there are alterations in style and verbal nuance, which may, as much as I intend to suppress, deviate from those of the original conversation spoken in Korean, such pertains to the nature of the translation process.]
YH: Since our last interview, so much has happened. What
would you say is the most memorable thing that has happened to you since we spoke last time?
SC: Musically speaking, there were a number of memorable events. I am particularly fond of the Mozart premiere, my performance with Andris Nelsons and the Berliner Philharmoniker, and my recital tour in Korea.
YH: Going beyond musical matters... you said have mostly been in Berlin during the pandemic. I can imagine that
you got to know the city well.
SC: Yes. I walked around a lot and acquainted myself
with the city. While I moved to Berlin in the autumn of 2017,
I have only been in the city for three to four months a year. Due to the pandemic, one can say that I spent the most
time in Berlin since I moved to the city.
YH: That makes sense. And you once told me that it is unusual for you to reside in a certain city for an extended period of time.
Did you find your favourite spot in Berlin?
SC: What I like about Berlin is that it has many parks.
While I enjoy going to places like Tiergarten, I also enjoy smaller places such as Monbijoupark and Mauerpark. There are also some nice green areas
in the western part of the city near Wannsee and in the eastern part of the
city close to Tempelhof Airport. Some of these parks aren’t necessarily
beautiful, but I enjoy their expansiveness. Treptower Park is
also a very nice place to be – I heard it’s the second-largest park in Berlin. In any
case, I enjoyed walking in these parks in my spare time.
YH: Do you go to these parks alone?
SC: Sometimes I go alone, but I also go there together with
friends and family.
YH: That sounds lovely. Would you listen to music
during these walks?
SC: I tend to not listen to much music when I am outdoors. I
noticed that I cannot concentrate on music well when there is much background
noise. While we can get high-quality noise-cancelling earphones nowadays, I prefer to
listen to music at home in silence instead. This also means that I rarely listen to music
while I travel, for example, on trains or in aeroplanes.
YH: How do you listen to music at home? Do you listen to music with sheet music in front of you, or
while you read a book, for example?
SC: If I want to get to know a symphony well, I listen
to the symphony with sheet music. I also listen to music by itself when I’m
tired and not doing much. I can occasionally also listen to music while writing emails.
YH: I see. I’ve always been curious about how people listen to music. Personally, while I like the idea of reading a book while listening to music, I often find myself not being able to fully concentrate on the book nor the music when I do this. And although I can read a book without music, I find it awkward to just listen to music without a visual stimulus. Maybe that's just me because I'm not a musician.
SC: I can respect people who listen to music and read books
at the same time. However, given that I know what arduous processes are
involved in the recording sessions, I find the use of music as background
activity slightly disrespectful towards the music being played. For this
reason, I do not, for example, play music while having a meal.
YH:… unless you’re writing an email.
SC: Emergency email.
(both laugh)
YH: Talking of recordings, I thought I’d bring up your
most recent recording with Matthias Goerne. How did this recording come into being?
SC: We finished the recording in the summer of 2019. I met Matthias for the first time in early 2017 in Paris. There, he was giving recitals of Schubert’s three big song cycles - Die schöne Müllerin, Winterreise, and Schwanengesang - with Leif Ove Andsnes. I was there to see his performances with a friend of mine, Didier De Cottignies. Didier had previously worked for Decca and Orchestre de Paris – he also used to help me a lot while I was studying in Paris. Didier was also a close friend of Matthias. So after a concert, Didier personally introduced me to Matthias. Funny enough, Matthias recognised me, saying that he liked my Chopin album and that he would like to perform with me one day. So we exchanged our contact details.
I received a call from him around two weeks after that encounter. This must have been two or three days before a performance of mine at Carnegie Hall. He went straight to the point, saying something on the lines of, “are you free on the 20th and the 22nd of April next year? Are you available?” When I told him I did not have anything particular scheduled on those dates, he immediately went, “Vienna. London. Paris - we’ll be playing!”
(both laugh)
SC: What could I say? I said, “Okay, it would be my honour and pleasure!” So this was my first musical collaboration with Matthias. Before these performances, I occasionally visited his home in Berlin. We played music and dined together. He also invited me to a number of social gatherings.
The programme we worked on was a heavy one – we played Hans Pfizner, Richard Wagner, Richard Strauss. Matthias had a contract with Deutsche Grammophon to record with three young pianists, Trifonov, Lisiecki, and myself. When Matthias suggested this recording project to me, I accepted without hesitation.
Matthias had already decided on the repertoire to be recorded. I thought his suggestions were good, so I happily went along. As you know, Richard Wagner and Richard Strauss barely have solo piano compositions, meaning that I was not accustomed to their piano writing. But I have always admired these composers and I love listening to their works in concert halls anyway. Besides, because I thought I could learn something through playing these rarely-played pieces, I was excited about this project. Everything went smoothly from there.
YH: My understanding is that Matthias recorded
Beethoven lieders with Lisiecki. Have you discussed with Goerne why he wanted
you – not Lisiecki - to play Wagner, Strauss, and Pfizner with him?
SC: No, I never asked him about these decisions. While I’m not entirely sure, I think Trifonov recorded Schumann songs with Matthias. I am sure Matthias had his ideas on why he chose to play certain composers with certain pianists.
The thing about Matthias is that he knows so much about the
piano. This is to the degree that when we chat about music, we chat more about
pianists than singers. He has an incredible wealth of knowledge on the musicality and characteristics of
pianists like Sokolov and Uchida. I think he can speak about the piano much more
eloquently than I can, even though I am the pianist. I am almost convinced he might even have more interest in the piano than myself.
(both laugh)
SC: Through my time with Matthias, I realised that he is someone who truly loves the piano and who cares about the instrument. Maybe this is so because he collaborated with many great pianists of our age such as Eschenbach, Brendel, and Ashkenazy from when he was young. I think he’s got an immense understanding of the piano.
YH: Does it make things easier for you, to play with someone
who knows your instrument so well? Do you feel comfortable?
SC: I wouldn’t exactly say that’s I am comfortable - not to say that I am uncomfortable either. When you interviewed me two years ago, we talked about me collaborating with conductors who were trained as pianists in the past. I am unusually nervous when I play with someone who knows my
instrument so well (SC laughs).
YH: I see. When you collaborate with Matthias, would he suggest to you how certain piano passages should be played?
SC: Very much so. He wouldn’t give me explicit interpretative notes, but I have learned so much in the process.
This
was, in fact, the first time I played as an accompanist to a singer. Usually, when playing chamber music, I am told especially by string players to decrease my volume – after all, the
piano can be quite a loud instrument (SC laughs). But this never happened with
Matthias. If anything, he would often ask me to come to the fore. For example,
he would say something on the lines of, “this is where I need to take a breath
– make sure you become more expressive so that we don’t slacken the momentum.”
I think such advice is incredibly insightful and helpful.
YH: Can we then say that in your recording with Matthias, there is a good balance between the singer and the piano?
SC: Well, even so, I am still an accompaniment to the voice. That said, it is hard to generalise my playing with Matthias because I have fairly limited experience playing as an accompanist to a singer. Whatever the case is, the piano’s role never felt diminished throughout my collaboration with Matthias.
YH: I also read from somewhere that the role of the pianist in a song setting may
depend on the composer. My knowledge is that in Schubert songs, the piano's role is explicitly supportive. However, when it comes to composers such as Hugo Wolf and Robert Schumann, the music asks for a more prominent presence from the pianist.
SC: I played a Schubert programme with Matthias in Korea. Indeed,
the piano part in Schubert’s songs is not technically demanding. And, yes,
there is a sense that Schubert mainly uses the piano as a support to the voice.
But even in this context, Mattias was very encouraging towards the piano in terms of volume and phrasing. For example, even if the piano may be required
to provide only simple rhythmic support to the voice, Matthias was sensitive
towards the many subtle ways the piano can be invigorated, intertwining together with the vocal
line. All in all, whenever Matthias suggested certain changes on my part, I
felt I was learning something new.
YH: How interesting. If we look at your discography, you have almost always been a soloist. In this sense, this album with Matthias is special because you are sharing headlines with someone else. This must have been a unique feeling, too.
SC: Very much so. Also, much more than any of my solo albums, it
was an easy album to make. When it comes to signing a contract for a recording, I find myself much at ease when I sign the contract with
others. I imagine this will also be the case for chamber music recordings, even though I don't particularly enjoy playing chamber music.
YH: Is it that you feel less pressured when recording with someone else?
SC: I don’t know. There is something unique about musical collaborations - I might even say that we are exchanging musical “energies” with one another.
I am slightly mystified by these so-called "energies" that exist in music-making. You cannot see this energy, nor can you exactly explain what it is. But just as a performer notices a huge difference when performing in front of an audience as opposed to performing without an audience, there is much that goes on in between musicians. I hope you can conduct a psychological study on this one day.
(both laugh)
YH: If we ever conduct a study together, I will have you as a co-author. I will seriously consider your offer!
(both laugh)
YH: I am curious about what you said about chamber
music just now. Did you say you don't like chamber music?
SC: That’s correct.
YH: When we spoke in Berlin last year, you mentioned that you would like to learn more about Bartók’s string quartets. I wonder how your interest in these string quartets can coexist with the fact that you
do not like chamber music?
SC: Oh. I enjoy listening to chamber music. It’s just that I do not enjoy playing chamber music - it is not always easy to find the right partners.
Among chamber music genres, I have a particular affinity with string quartets. I like the string quartets by Shostakovich, Bartók, and Beethoven – I often listen to them at home with the score. In string quartets, there is a sense that all four instruments are soloists, yet they, simultaneously, act together like an orchestra.
Let us say that we do a blind test to correctly guess the musician of a performance. If we play recordings of Tchaikovsky’s 6th symphony from, say, Gergiev, Myung-Whun Chung, Haitink, Mravinsky, and Temirkanov, only a seasoned listener can correctly tell these conductors apart. But let us say that we do the same blind test on a Beethoven sonata. If we have a selection of, for example, Kissin, Sokolov, Horowitz, Radu Lupu, and Murray Perahia, it is relatively easy to match the pianist with the performance. In other words, it is easier to tell piano soloists apart compared to orchestral conductors. In terms of the ease of telling musicians apart, I think string quartets are in between conductors and piano soloists. So in this sense, too, string quartets are relatable to both soloists and orchestras. I cannot say I can pick out my favourite string quartet group, but I am quite fond of the Busch Quartet and the Amadeus Quartet.
YH: I think I understand what you mean by a string quartet having both
an individual voice and a collective voice. For a similar reason, I enjoy
listening to piano trios. In piano trios, I can hear not only the unique timbres of each instrument but also the collective texture the
three instruments create together. How strange, that opposites can exist simultaneously.
[Note. As I write this passage on how opposites can coexist, I am reminded of the famous visual illusion of an old woman looking also like a young woman and vice versa. While both physical realities simultaneously exist, only one element can be perceived at a single moment of time. This is why at the moment one sees the old woman, one cannot see the young woman, even though the young woman is still physically there. I wonder if something similar happens in the perceptions of string quartets and piano trios - while physically the musicians perform both as soloists and as a collective, it is possible that the mind operates to only perceive one element at a time.]
SC: Yes, I agree.
YH: To put string quartets in a bad light though, I admit
that it is not always easy for me to listen to string quartets. I cannot always tell
the four instruments apart because the timbres of the four instruments are so similar. That said, this can also be
a string quartet’s unique beauty. I am occasionally reminded of a monochrome
painting or a Dürer woodcut print when listening to string quartets.
SC: Yes, yes.
YH: To return to Bartók’s music and to shortly return to last year's conversation, I was quite
surprised to hear of your enthusiasm towards the Hungarian composer. To be
honest, I have never associated Bartók’s music world
with you. The angular and gritty characters of Bartók’s pieces seem at odds with the lyricism you so excel in.
SC: While I did not play Bartók’s music very often when I was young, I still perform Bartók’s works from time to time. I played pieces such as Out of Doors and Romanian Dance. I also have plans to play Bartók’s third piano concerto soon.
YH: Is this concerto the piece that Bartók composed very close
to his death?
SC: Yes. It is a late piece.
YH: I remember the slow movement had an unusual name – I
think Bartók called it religioso.
SC: Yes. He wanted to convey a religious feeling. Generally speaking, Bartók’s music is percussive, yet his music also has these mysterious and otherworldly qualities. His second concerto is particularly exciting in its rhythmic vitality.
I actually quite like this style of music. I feel that this side of me is not always known to be public given my status as the winner of the last Chopin competition. I can never say that I am the best in the world in playing music by, say, Bartók and Prokofiev. However, I enjoy their music, have played their music throughout my career, and I will definitely continue to play their music.
YH: Indeed, you have performed Prokofiev’s second piano
concerto often in recent years.
SC: Yes. I think Prokofiev’s second concerto is quite a lyrical
piece… at least much more compared to his third piano concerto.
YH: What are your thoughts on Prokofiev’s third piano
concerto? It is clearly the most popular of Prokofiev’s piano concertos.
SC: While I have played the third concerto before, I do not have plans to play it that often in the future. I would rather listen to Martha Argerich’s version of the piece rather than play it myself – I just don’t think it’s worth my time to play the piece (SC grins). What I mean is that I perform a piece when I know I can bring something new to it. This does not mean that I have to be known as the best interpreter of that particular piece, but it would be nice to be recognised for bringing something memorable…something worthwhile.
Coming back to Prokofiev’s third piano concerto, there are so many great interpretations of this piece out there already – I do not necessarily have to give myself a go at this work. In this sense, it’s not worth my time to deliver Prokofiev's third piano concerto (SC laughs).
YH: Now you brought up Prokofiev, what are
your thoughts on Prokofiev’s other piano concertos?
SC: I don't particularly like the fourth concerto. I have
played the first concerto before – I think I could play this piece again if the opportunity arises. I cannot say much about the fifth concerto because I have never
performed it before.
YH: All this is so very exciting. I forgot to ask an important question I was meant to ask earlier.
(both laugh)
YH: Do you listen to songs (i.e. lieder) in your free time?
SC: To be frank, I don’t listen to songs as frequently as I listen to orchestral music, symphonies, string quartets, or piano
music. Similarly, I don’t listen to much opera. Still, I have listened to some
classic recordings in the song repertoire, like the ones by Fischer-Dieskau and Wunderlich.
YH: I’d now like to ask you a number of questions
regarding your views on the recording process. You implied earlier that recording
music generally requires arduous effort. Do you enjoy
recording music?
SC: No, not really (SC pauses).
(both laugh)
SC: Recently, I recorded Chopin’s second piano concerto and the four Scherzos. As long as I live and regardless of whether the album is a success or not, I will never forget how unusually this album was recorded due to the pandemic. To start with, I do not remember exactly how many times I had to be tested for COVID19 (SC laughs).
I recorded the Scherzos in early March in an empty hall in Hamburg. Only four people worked at the hotel I stayed in, and I was the only customer there. In the morning, those four workers would wait for me to come down for breakfast. As soon as I finished my breakfast, they were done for the day and they all returned home.
(both laugh)
SC: I don’t mind wearing a mask, but there were so many other things that made the recording process peculiar. The
recording of the concerto was meant to take place last year November in London, but Abbey Road Studios
had to close due to COVID19. Then there were also quarantining issues. The
recording schedule of the concerto must have changed at least three times. At last, when the recording
was finally scheduled for April this year in London, the producer I usually work with could not make it to the sessions –
we had to find another producer in London.
YH: I understand you were booked for two days to record
the Chopin concerto. Were the two days enough for you?
SC: In a concerto recording, we first have rehearsals before the recording begins. For recording Chopin's second concerto, I
think two days is just about the right length.
YH: You had already recorded Chopin’s first
concerto with the same collaborators, namely London Symphony Orchestra and conductor
Gianandrea Noseda. I
wonder if your experience with them then could have helped you somehow in the new
recording.
SC: Frankly speaking, I do not remember much from our
previous collaboration.
(both laugh)
SC: That was already five years ago. I do remember how I had been excited by the prospect of recording Chopin’s first piano concerto with London Symphony Orchestra in London's famous Abbey Road Studios. This was also my first ever studio recording. So, I remember my emotions from back then. Unfortunately, I remember very little of the recording process and what happened during the recording sessions. I imagine the two occasions, then and now, were not too dissimilar.
YH: In our very first interview from 2019, you said you have a
good relationship with conductor Noseda. I suppose this was a huge bonus this round
as well.
SC: There is no doubt about that.
I should mention that when I recorded Chopin's first concerto with Noseda back in 2016, it was also the first time I met him in the flesh. We had dinner together the night before our recording when we discussed the general tempo for the concerto. Then we proceeded to record the next day.
In fact, conductor Myung-Whun Chung was meant to conduct that recording, but that got suddenly cancelled. So, Noseda stepped in. Noseda and I have since collaborated on so many occasions around the world. And so, when we sat together this time to record Chopin’s second concerto, I felt comfortable. It is a huge advantage going into the recording studio knowing that there are people that you know well.
YH: Indeed, even when we spoke in 2019, you performed in that evening with Noseda and London Symphony Orchestra at London’s Barbican Centre. Would you say you are content with the recording
you made this time?
SC: (SC pauses) I don’t know. I will not be listening to the
recording anyway – I’ve had enough of it.
(both laugh)
SC: I’ve had my share of listening to that recording during the editing procedure.
Essentially, I don’t want to think about it.
YH: Did this experience put you off Chopin’s second concerto as a whole as well?
SC: No. It’s just about my own recording. I also feel a bit embarrassed when I listen to my own playing, which is why I rarely listen to my own recordings.
(both laugh)
YH: When playing a concerto, what is the relationship between a conductor and a soloist?
SC: It's an interesting one.
[To be continued in Part 2]
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| Seong-Jin Cho, © Christoph Köstlin / DG |