INTERVIEW | Seong-Jin Cho (Series Part 4) | "To keep what one has, one has to aim high"
In conversation with Seong-Jin Cho (Part 4); 조성진 인터뷰 시리즈 (4부)
Interviewed in Berlin on 25 January 2020.
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| Seong-Jin Cho, © Christoph Köstlin / DG |
The present article is part of a series of interviews with Seong-Jin Cho. For the conversation preceding this article, see Part 1, Part 2, and Part 3. For my interview with Seong-Jin from last year, click here.
I.
(Note. Seong-Jin had talked about his conducting experience at Tongyeong.)
YH: I'd now like to go beyond music. Do you have a hobby that many people might be surprised to know about?
SC: An unexpected hobby, you mean? (SC grins)
SC: An unexpected hobby, you mean? (SC grins)
YH: Yes.
SC: I cannot say this is a concrete hobby, but I enjoy people-watching (SC grins). As I travel so frequently, I find myself often dining alone. In these times, it is a joy of mine to observe bypassers while I eat.
YH: And these would usually be in restaurants?
SC: It can also be cafes.
YH: Actually, I also enjoy people-watching a lot.
SC: I think we are a bit perverse.
(both laugh)
YH: Because I am also a big fan of people-watching, I can assure you that people-watching is a magnificent pastime... undoubtedly the noblest of acts.
(both laugh)
YH: You mentioned in our last year interview that you enjoy going to museums.
SC: Yes. However, I don't think this is a hobby that will surprise many people. On the other hand, something that could perhaps raise interest is my mug collection.
YH: Oh, this is fascinating. This is another commonality we share. I always wanted to collect mugs as a hobby.
SC: Oh really?
(both laugh)
YH: I concede that I haven't started my mug collection just yet, but I've thought about it for some years already. Once I settle down, I will start. There are people who collect hats and stamps, for example, but I had a thing for mugs. What kind of mugs do you collect?
SC: In my collection, I have Starbucks mugs from different cities. Most big cities have Starbucks, and each branch has a unique mug design to represent its city. Beyond Starbucks, I also have a selection of, for example, Chopin-themed mugs from Poland and owl-painted mugs from Dijon, France. I try to buy mugs that represent a certain place.
SC: In my collection, I have Starbucks mugs from different cities. Most big cities have Starbucks, and each branch has a unique mug design to represent its city. Beyond Starbucks, I also have a selection of, for example, Chopin-themed mugs from Poland and owl-painted mugs from Dijon, France. I try to buy mugs that represent a certain place.
YH: Do these mugs remind of you the places you've visited to perform?
SC: Yes.
YH: Do you have a favourite mug by any chance?
SC: I don't think so. I enjoy looking at the collection I have (SC laughs).
YH: I can understand the visual appeal. Do you actually use these mugs?
SC: Occasionally. But the mugs I use to buy for the purpose of using... I always buy two. So while I use one of the two mugs, the other will always be there for the sole purpose of exhibition.
(both laugh)
SC: I have around 100 mugs at home.
YH: That is a real collection, indeed. Where do you keep these mugs? I imagine you would have a special place for them, even a dedicated room.
SC: It's in the room I practice my piano (SC grins). Actually, they're all on a shelf.
(both laugh)
YH: Do you think I could be shared a photo of your collection?
SC: Sure (Note. SC displays a photograph on his phone). This photograph has some of my Starbucks mugs. You can see Toronto, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Taipei, Montreal, Abu Dabi, Stuttgart, Nice, Liverpool, Seoul, London, Utrecht...
YH: When did you first seriously start this hobby? Did you know it would become such a big collection?
SC: I must have started this hobby since the 2015 Chopin competition. Oh, actually I had a small collection even before then! I had collected some mugs from Japan.
YH: Do you think I could be shared a photo of your collection?
SC: Sure (Note. SC displays a photograph on his phone). This photograph has some of my Starbucks mugs. You can see Toronto, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Taipei, Montreal, Abu Dabi, Stuttgart, Nice, Liverpool, Seoul, London, Utrecht...
YH: When did you first seriously start this hobby? Did you know it would become such a big collection?
SC: I must have started this hobby since the 2015 Chopin competition. Oh, actually I had a small collection even before then! I had collected some mugs from Japan.
YH: I know I'm talking way too much about mugs at this point, but given my personal interests in mugs, I am going to continue asking you about them (YH laughs). Do you find a unique beauty in mugs?
SC: Wells, mugs are prettier than regular tumblers (a silence follows).
(both laugh)
YH: In my case, I find the beauty of mugs to be quite similar to the beauty of shoes. The general designs of mugs and shoes seem set. In other words, you cannot go to extreme shapes in mugs and shoes, given their specific functions of trapping liquid and wrapping feet, respectively. In this limited possibilities of design, there are still ways to make mugs and shoes stand out in their beauty. The designs of mugs and shoes, thus, require a great degree of subtlety; the smallest variations in detail can make a huge difference.
SC: That makes sense. Sadly, I don't have a collection of shoes. Most of my shoes are formal shoes. At the moment, mugs are the only things I collect. What else might surprise people? Let me think (SC pauses). I do collect music CDs, but I don't think this is that interesting. I can't think of anything at the moment.
YH: I see. Just out of curiosity, are you interested in Scandinavian furniture? I ask this because I adore Scandinavian housewares. And given the fact that it turns out we share quite a few hobbies, I thought I'd ask in reverse this time.
SC: Yes, I do. But they're so expensive!
SC: Yes, I do. But they're so expensive!
(both laugh)
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| Seong-Jin's mug collection |
II.
YH: Given the conversation we've had so far, I get a sense that you are someone who likes to delve deep into certain interests.
SC: Yes, it seems so.
SC: Yes, it seems so.
YH: Is this good quality to have?
SC: I hope so!
SC: I hope so!
(both laugh)
YH: I wonder if this also holds true for your musical interests. Earlier, you implied that you listen mainly to classical music. So you don't listen to much music outside of classical music?
SC: I can't say I do. The truth is, I don't even find much time to listen to much classical music. Among the standard repertoire in classical music, there are still so many pieces I don't know well. For example, I would love to learn more about Bartók's string quartets. So I'd rather spend much time listening to these pieces. Of course, I generally like classical music more than other genres; had I liked other genres, I would have found much meaning and pleasure listening to those genres in my free time. I think I like complex music. Compared to pop music, classical music has a more complicated structure and the pieces tend to be longer.
(Note. SC's comparison between classical and non-classical music reminds me of the replies that Vladimir Ashkenazy gave during my interview with him. Of course, not all classical musicians focus exclusively on classical music. Denis Matsuev and Sumi Jo both expressed their love for pop music. For discussions of non-classical music, see my interviews with Shiyeon Sung, Sunwook Kim, and Thomas Søndergård.)
SC: I can't say I do. The truth is, I don't even find much time to listen to much classical music. Among the standard repertoire in classical music, there are still so many pieces I don't know well. For example, I would love to learn more about Bartók's string quartets. So I'd rather spend much time listening to these pieces. Of course, I generally like classical music more than other genres; had I liked other genres, I would have found much meaning and pleasure listening to those genres in my free time. I think I like complex music. Compared to pop music, classical music has a more complicated structure and the pieces tend to be longer.
(Note. SC's comparison between classical and non-classical music reminds me of the replies that Vladimir Ashkenazy gave during my interview with him. Of course, not all classical musicians focus exclusively on classical music. Denis Matsuev and Sumi Jo both expressed their love for pop music. For discussions of non-classical music, see my interviews with Shiyeon Sung, Sunwook Kim, and Thomas Søndergård.)
SC: What I also like about classical music is that it does not necessarily need to have an underlying songtext - this lack of songtext opens up a great degree of subjective imagination and interpretation. I appreciate this a lot. On this role of songtext, distinctions can also be made within classical music. Where vocal works tend to specify musical expressions due to the presence of songtexts and a certain extramusical storyline, pure instrumental works invite listeners and musicians to come up with their own musical emotions. This abstract quality in purely instrumental works is what makes me listen to more instrumental pieces than vocal works.
YH: I suppose a third variation could be ballet. Here, we have an instrumental work without songtexts, even though there is a clear storyline present. In other words, there is a specific and expected emotional expression dependent on the storyline.
SC: That's true.
YH: How do you find ballet?
SC: I've been to a number of ballet productions while I was in Paris. However, I prefer purely instrumental works.
(Note. In my interview with Sunwook Kim, the pianist spoke of his love for ballets.)
YH: I see. I'll slightly change the subject. Do you enjoy reading?
SC: Well, I carry a book all the time and I try to read whenever an opportunity arises. At the moment, I have with me Romain Gary's La vie devant soi. However, I cannot say I am someone who reads frequently, nor am I versed well in the literary world. I definitely cannot say I "love" [sic] reading. I, therefore, cannot say reading is a proper hobby.
SC: I've been to a number of ballet productions while I was in Paris. However, I prefer purely instrumental works.
(Note. In my interview with Sunwook Kim, the pianist spoke of his love for ballets.)
YH: I see. I'll slightly change the subject. Do you enjoy reading?
SC: Well, I carry a book all the time and I try to read whenever an opportunity arises. At the moment, I have with me Romain Gary's La vie devant soi. However, I cannot say I am someone who reads frequently, nor am I versed well in the literary world. I definitely cannot say I "love" [sic] reading. I, therefore, cannot say reading is a proper hobby.
YH: In other words, you carry around a book but you aren't too passionate about reading it.
SC: That's right. I discovered that there is a certain comfort that carrying a book around brings.
YH: I can imagine that a book has its physical allure. For example, people can appreciate a book's smell, weight, and so on. Is it usually fiction that you carry around?
YH: I can imagine that a book has its physical allure. For example, people can appreciate a book's smell, weight, and so on. Is it usually fiction that you carry around?
SC: Yes. I tend to have more fiction with me than non-fiction.
YH: And in which language do you prefer to have your books?
SC: Typically, my books are in Korean or English. If I can find something simple and easy, I try to read it in French.
III.
SC: It is true that I enjoyed mathematics when I was young. Back then, I enjoyed doing all the required calculations inside my head - mathematics was intuitive to me. However, once I reached the further advanced stages in mathematics, it was no longer possible to do calculations without writing things down. I always disliked doing calculations on paper. So since high school, my relationship with mathematics stopped, more or less.
YH: Was there a subject you enjoyed in particularly in high school?
SC: I started to enjoy history classes because I thought I could learn about humanity. Generally speaking, I think that the history of mankind is a history of mishaps. For example, the history of the 20th century is much about the two world wars - these wars are two of the biggest mistakes humans have ever committed.
YH: Is there a historical era that interests you?
SC: I am not a specialist in any way, but I am fascinated by the history of US presidents. Korean history is also something that interests me. Looking back at various places and times, I realise that it always takes time to understand if a certain political decision was correct or not. And before this time of realisation arrives, so many things are left in ambiguity. What I want to say is that much of our history is determined by mistakes and unpredicted happenings. To learn from the past, we must learn to be patient.
SC: I am not a specialist in any way, but I am fascinated by the history of US presidents. Korean history is also something that interests me. Looking back at various places and times, I realise that it always takes time to understand if a certain political decision was correct or not. And before this time of realisation arrives, so many things are left in ambiguity. What I want to say is that much of our history is determined by mistakes and unpredicted happenings. To learn from the past, we must learn to be patient.
YH: I agree with you. Do you generally enjoy talking about politics or political history?
SC: Whenever political topics come out in conversations, I tend to be a listener. I don't enjoy expressing my political opinions too often. However, I've heard someone say that to be politically silent is also a political statement. That may be true. Yet I am also aware of the consequences of speaking one's political views. So if I am forced upon political opinions, I will say that "because I am a political person, I will not speak my mind."
(both laugh)
YH: What a brilliant answer! I understand because I also do not enjoy talking much about politics. But do you worry that even such a well-crafted answer of yours can be misinterpreted? As you said, silence can be a political statement. I've had some people tell me that political silence is a form of irresponsibility; they say that political silence is ultimately anti-democratic.
SC: These things are difficult. I think it's dangerous to be 100% certain about things. This goes beyond politics. Even as a musician, it is dangerous to think with certainty that "my way is the right way to do things." It is always healthy to throw question marks about everything.
YH: I agree. Most times, it is impossible to know how the world works, let alone how we ourselves operate.
YH: I agree. Most times, it is impossible to know how the world works, let alone how we ourselves operate.
IV.
YH: Now that we talked about mathematics, literature, and history, I would like to draw your attention to science. Recently, there have been a number of psychological studies on how people perceive and react to music. What is your opinion about these studies?
SC: I've heard about such developments but I am not too aware of the details. I've definitely heard that some psychologists are using music in therapies. For me, an important assumption is that music is ultimately a subjective experience, even though there are objective properties, too. If I take Beethoven's 4th piano concerto as an example, some people will find the piece Romantic, whereas some will find it classical, or even meditative. It's difficult to take Beethoven's music and simplify the experience for a specific use, such as in therapy. But if some people were to use music as a means of therapy, I think it's important to choose the right piece of music, a piece that has a clear-cut concept. For example, I don't think Chopin's Marche funèbre would be a good choice for curing people because of its dark character. So perhaps music with a brighter mood could work in these settings.
YH: That last thing you mentioned is an interesting topic in itself. I know some music psychologists have been researching why people like listening to sad music. There is even a philosophical argument that experiencing tragic emotions, such as the funeral march you mentioned, can be healing... it's something like catharsis. As a musician, what emotions go through you when you play sad music?
SC: The topic of emotions during performances is generally a good topic to talk about. Many people tend to think that the life of a musician is very Romantic. It's common that people think that musicians go through an emotional transformation during performances. However, I cannot say that applies to me during my performances. The primary reason I say this is that I am simply too nervous and anxious being on stage (SC laughs) that these spiritual experiences are out of the question. Of course, during practice, I am on a better track of my emotions; I am more conscious of the emotions I am encountering and shaping. When it comes to public performances, I simply am not conscious of my emotions - no matter how sad a piece is, I cannot produce tears. I remember how the piece begins and soon afterwards, I find myself having finished the piece. This can also be interpreted as the importance of rehearsals. Anyway, this is the case for me, so I cannot generalise how things are across other musicians and their transformative experiences during performances.
YH: So it's during rehearsals that you try to plan the emotional narrative of the piece you're playing.
SC: That's correct. The reason that performances are special to me is that these are times when I am open to the possibility of being spontaneous based on what I have practised. Anything can happen during performances because I am in this state of unconscious flux. So even if my preparations are strict and academic, there are spaces for nuance and flexibility. In some ways, we are very similar to athletes. As we prepare for a performance, we look after ourselves. We are wary about our mental ups and downs, we try to eat nutritiously and keep a healthy diet by not overeating or undereating. It's important not to fall ill. So much is about discipline. Whatever people say about musicians being artistic, living a life of late-night drinking, partying, and with nomadic freedom (SC laughs), is not true for me. But these kinds of illusions about artists are common.
(Note. In my interview with Vasily Petrenko, the conductor also drew a parallel between musicians and athletes.)
YH: I like the parallel you drew between musicians and athletes. To a certain degree, I wonder if music as a whole is excessively Romanticised. People often claim that music is the greatest of all human experiences. But if you go to mathematicians, they will undoubtedly find transcendental beauty in great mathematical equations. Likewise, athletes experience and express great emotions during their performances, sometimes leading to tears of joy. Strong emotions of beauty is not a specialised domain for music only. Great emotions will be there in any human activity, as long as there is sincerity in a true heart.
(both laugh)
SC: And, of course, not all music is beautiful. Art also includes things that are ugly. So I am also ambivalent toward the viewpoint that everything is interpreted as being beautiful.
YH: Do you have an example of a piece you played that is not necessarily beautiful? Before I started recording, we talked about Berg and Prokofiev - they certainly have pieces that aren't exactly pretty.
SC: Yes. Prokofiev's 2nd concerto as a whole is not what we can call traditionally beautiful. But there is no doubt that it is a masterpiece. Not only is it a masterpiece, but people also enjoy listening to this concerto. Even if it's not a pretty piece, there are great emotions here, and we sometimes want to enjoy pain (SC laughs). It's not that we are necessarily happy, but enjoyment and being happy are two different things.
YH: Is this a form of masochism? (YH laughs)
SC: Well... I wouldn't go that far.
(both laugh)
SC: I think we can say something similar about the symphonies of Mahler. They have moments of beauty, but I wouldn't call Mahler symphonies beautiful. Instead, Maher's music is deep, with a sense of purpose... and is dramatic. We enjoy these types of works and feel ecstatic.
YH: I agree. I think this shows how complex musical experiences can be. And if you think about it, if a piece of music is only beautiful, that would be boring. Imagine a four-hour Wagner opera filled up only with beautiful tunes - that would not be too gratifying.
SC: If there are too many moments of beauty, this approach undermines the truly beautiful moments.
YH: You said you don't like being Romanticised, but allow me to just do exactly that. Had your life been purely filled with beautiful episodes, you won't be experiencing the truly beautiful moments you are experiencing these days. So your life is like a great piece of music.
(both laugh)
YH: I know I went too far. I'm sorry.
SC: That was too cringy.
(both laugh)
YH: I know, I know... I'll blame everything on this glass of orange juice I just hastily drank. Let's just say I panicked, somehow.
(both laugh)
V.
YH: I propose that we conclude our conversation at this point - it's been a long afternoon. Is there something else you would like to add, by any chance? For example, would you like to share some of your future plans or is there anything you'd like to say to your fans and audiences?
(Note. SC and I had chatted for around 2 hours at this point.)
SC: If I look at my career, I think I advanced very quickly. Before my winning of the Chopin competition, my dream had always been to be a normal performer, in the sense of being successful enough to feed myself. Given such goals, I feel I am overachieving at present. I feel I am lucky and I am grateful for many things.
The funny thing is, now that I have achieved my goals from the past, I am beginning to think of new ones. It makes me think that there is no end to human greed. I think that it's important that I should know my place; after all, there is a place for everyone, and I am no exception. There will eventually come a point where I will not be able to advance further - I will have to accept this. So it's important not to overexert by being too greedy.
The funny thing is, now that I have achieved my goals from the past, I am beginning to think of new ones. It makes me think that there is no end to human greed. I think that it's important that I should know my place; after all, there is a place for everyone, and I am no exception. There will eventually come a point where I will not be able to advance further - I will have to accept this. So it's important not to overexert by being too greedy.
YH: Are you saying this out of a specific experience?
SC: No. I've occasionally felt that things are progressing a bit too quickly. Of course, others might not think so when they look at me from the outside. All in all, the conclusion I arrived at is that I want to maintain my present pace of development. Ironically, almost against what I said earlier about being greedy, this means that I should still work hard. To keep what one has, one has to aim high and never slacken one's reins on oneself. If one is content too soon, one won't be able to maintain one's qualities. So I will continue trying. This is what I think a lot about these days.
YH: What are your immediate plans for the future?
SC: I would like to work on Brahms.
YH: Which pieces in particular?
SC: The two concertos. Also, while I have played in many famous halls in the world, I have not yet played in Vienna's Musikverein. So it would be nice if I could play there in the next few years. It's been my childhood dream to play there.
YH: Over the past few hours, we've had a really extensive conversation. We started from your childhood before talking about how you are at present. But who knows... when you read our present interview far away in the future, you might look back and think you were still a child in 2020.
(both laugh)
YH: I don't want to pressure you, but I know many good things will happen to you. I thank you very much for your time. I really enjoyed our chat.
SC: Likewise. Thank you.
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| Seong-Jin Cho, © Christoph Köstlin / DG |