INTERVIEW | Magdalena Kožená | "Music is all about what happens between the public and the performers during the moment of performing"
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| Magdalena Kožená, © Julia Wesely / Pentatone |
Bearing the memories of a cold, dry winter and anticipating the air of summer, the quick months of March to May is a picture of spring in Korea. This spring is also home to cherry blossoms, whose pink dues sweep throughout the peninsula's landscape, for what is no more than two weeks per year.
It is under these scenes that Tongyeong, a picturesque seaside city on the southern coast of the Korean peninsula, hosts the Tongyeong International Music Festival. This year, the festival invited the internationally-famed mezzo-soprano Ms Magdalena Kožená, who brought with her a recital programme largely consisting of her Nostalgia album (Pentatone) released last year. Ms Kožená's Korean tour this year would also include a performance in Daegu.
Over a 40-minutes online conversation, Ms Kožená and I started speaking about her experiences in Korea and some general thoughts in relation to touring. We then discussed the topic of how to maintain consistency in performances yet how the perception of performances may also be determined by various factors. We also discussed the diversification of interpretations by bringing up Baroque music performances, the music of Martinů, and, lastly, the idea of musical legacy.
Below is a transcript of our conversation.
[Note. All interviews on the website are approved by the interviewees prior to publication.]
I.
Young-Jin Hur (YH): Thank you very much for making time.
It’s a great pleasure to have you as a guest. How are you today?
Magdalena Kožená (MK): I am fine. I’ve spent some beautiful days in Tongyeong in Korea, a city I have never been to before. I had a fantastic experience. The hall was great and the public was fantastic, too. I had some great food too by the seaside. It was a real pleasure to be there and to perform at the Tongyeong International Music Festival.
YH: I am very happy to hear this. Was there anything that
you did today in particular? I ask this question because I am curious about your day-to-day life during a tour.
MK: Today, my schedule mainly concerned travelling between two cities, as I travelled from Tongyeong to Daegu. It was quite a long journey. And because it was my first time in Daegu, I explored the city – I wanted to gain a feeling for the city. For example, I’ve learned that Daegu has a very different atmosphere compared to Tongyeong, as it’s much more urban.
On concert days, I have a sort of routine. I write down the text of the songs, which I usually sing by heart. It helps me to write things down to refresh my
memory. I do yoga, I walk, and I read in the afternoon. In other words, I take
it quite easy.
YH: I see. You mentioned routines. Do you keep this
routine whenever you are on tour?
MK: Yes, I do. But at the same time, if I visit a place I
have never been to before, I am curious and I want to get to know the place. It
would be such a shame to just stay in the hotel. So, I try to explore the city
a little bit in these cases. At the same time, I cannot explore the city like a
tourist, which is sometimes a sort of a trap. That’s why I end up going to some
local places.
In Korea, visiting local places can be sometimes difficult
because not everyone speaks English and there can be some moments that are lost
in translation. But on the other hand, this is what I like. Otherwise, you have
similar experiences across various cities. You need to experience things that
are beyond the usual – every city has its own smell and the people have their
own ways of thinking. All in all, I try to enter the day to day and real life of the places I
am performing in, instead of just getting to know the touristic sites.
YH: Was there anything you did in particular in Tongyeong
and Daegu?
MK: In Tongyeong, we went to this fish market where they had
all these creatures you could eat. This was quite an experience. I love food
especially Korean food, which is why I enjoyed the wide range of Kimchi they
were selling at marketplaces, too. All in all, we had some great local food
experiences.
(both laugh)
YH: I imagine that’s very different from Czech food or
food you get in other European cities.
MK: Yes. I was brave on many occasions. For example, there
were some dishes that had live and moving creatures. They told me that eating this dish was a test
I had to pass to be a proper Korean.
YH: So, did you pass the test? (YH laughs)
MK: I did.
(both laugh)
II.
YH: It’s wonderful that you are having these new
experiences where you can learn about your audience and gain a feel for the
places you perform. At the same time, I can imagine that things aren’t always easy in
international performances. After all, you are going to a completely new place,
you have to break many of your usual routines, and you also have to overcome jetlag.
MK: Yes, that’s something that takes time and experience. On this occasion, the experience was especially special because I had to quarantine in these quarantine hotels. That certainly was an experience that I can say was perhaps less pleasant than having local food (MZ laughs). So, you experience a lot of things when you travel, and some things can be difficult. As you say, jetlag is also something you must overcome. You just have to find your own ways of going through them.
YH: I’m personally terrible with jetlag (YH laughs). Do
you have any advice on how to overcome jetlag efficiently? I get the feeling
that you will have a special method, as I am sure you
will have had to perform just a few days or hours after landing.
MK: Well, I use in the beginning a little of a “chemical”
[sic]. If you have four to five days, you can overcome jetlag naturally. But
you’re right in that if you have to perform the next day, you have to do
something about it. You need to get some sleep. So, although I don’t like it, I get
help through a chemical.
YH: You said “chemical” in quite a mysterious way, so I will
stop prying too much into that topic.
(both laugh)
MK: The important thing is… it works.
(both laugh)
YH: If it works for you, that’s perfect – you are making
use of what the chemical was probably designed for. But I suppose we cannot
rule out exceptions. Did you ever have cases where you couldn’t perform ideally
due to jetlag?
MK: Of course. But in the grand scheme of things, you don’t even have to be jetlagged.
Sometimes, you just don’t sleep enough or at all. These things happen. Then you
have to make peace with the fact that you don’t give the best performance the
next day.
YH: Oh dear!
MK: Or sometimes, you actually do end up giving a good performance despite your bad sleep, and you don’t know how
you did it. Adrenaline usually
brings you away from tiredness. Every day is different. We are not robots;
we are humans. Some days are better than the others and you have to make peace
with this fact (MK laughs).
YH: I think that is a very wise answer. When you have a
performance that you’re not entirely happy with – and by the way, I promise I
will bring up some positive topics as well…
(both laugh)
YH: … so, if you’re having a performance that you didn’t
think was ideal, do you perhaps feel slightly apologetic to the audience or do
you feel guilty? Or do you tend to just forget about the occasion and move on?
MK: Of course, I have a very high standard of what I want to
achieve. Obviously, I am cross with the situation or with myself for not
delivering exactly what I wanted. That said, sometimes I am surprised by the
subjectivity of perception. You can feel tired and you’re not happy with this
and that, but often the audience sees it differently. Sometimes I think I
didn’t give a good performance and then people say, “ah, it was especially good
today.” So, I’m like, “what?”
(both laugh)
MK: And sometimes I think to myself I was great, but the
reaction isn’t that good. So, there is a lot of subjectivity regarding what you
want from yourself, what you manage to get across, and what the audience hears.
Conversely, I am sometimes not on form as an audience member. There
can be a great performance that I didn’t perceive as great. Sometimes, I am in a
mood to listen and be impressed, and sometimes, I am not. There can be times I
fall asleep in the middle of a performance. There can also be times when I cannot concentrate, so I end up thinking about something else during the performance.
(both laugh)
MK: In other words, performers can have bad days, and so can
the audiences.
YH: This makes a lot of sense. At the same time, there must be, at some
point, some agreement among listeners and/or performers.
MK: Yes, we usually have a certain standard of performance. So,
when a performance is bad, it’s just a little bit bad. It’s not that one day
you sing like a god and another day you are completely horrible. We wouldn’t be
hired if there was no consistency at all.
(both laugh)
MK: We are talking about very small details. I think many
people would not see a difference between what I thought was a good performance
and what I thought was a bad performance.
YH: I think that’s a great answer. I agree with you that
we’re talking about these minute differences.
[Note. In my previous interview with Vasily Petrenko and Seong-Jin Cho, we discussed the theme of maintaining (high) performance standards.]
III.
YH: I would now like to talk about the programme you are
staging in Tongyeong and Daegu. I noticed that much of the programme is taken
from your last year’s Pentatone album. Is it usual that you perform pieces that
you recently recorded? Or is it the case that you perform some pieces live,
record them, and then do some more live performances of those pieces? I’m quite
curious about how the structure of your performance schedules.
MK: Ideally, live concerts should proceed with recordings. It’s good to sing something many times in public performances before recording it. This is because you always discover new things through, and only through, public performances. It’s a very different atmosphere when you are only with your pianist in a recording studio. So, for me, it’s very important to have some concerts before recording sessions.
Of course, recording companies really like to have concerts after an
album release because you can promote the album. In our days, unfortunately, it’s very common that you release an album before really performing those
pieces in the album. I really do not think this strategy is the best way for
performers – this is the best way for recording companies, I guess. Sometimes,
you record a piece, and you think, “oh, it’s a shame – I would have done things
differently.” Sadly, the album is already recorded and is out to the public. I
think a good compromise would be to have live concerts surrounding an album
release.
[Note. In my interview with Seong-Jin Cho, we discussed the touring schedule following an album release.]
YH: That’s really interesting, especially on what you
said about learning new things in live performances after an album’s release.
I’d like to expand on this topic. In the album released last year, you
performed with Yefim Bronfman. However, the
pianist has changed in your tour in Korea this time, namely to Ohad Ben-Ari. I am wondering if that partnership would
have also changed some of your interpretations compared to the album in any
way.
MK: Of course, a song recital is a duet. The pianist will
inevitably influence the way you sing. I like that. There are some singers who
come in, saying, “this is my way of doing things, and I want somebody who
simply accompanies me to do what I want.” I don’t like that because I think
music is a dialogue. Ohad is a fantastic pianist who has his own ideas. It’s a
mutual work together. Of course, I’m not singing completely different compared to the album but
there are things that, for sure, are different from the recording thanks to
Ohad.
The nature of live music is that things will always
change at the moment to get inspiration from your pianist, from the public, and
from the form you have that day. When you are really relaxed, you can have
longer phrases and you breathe less often. You can risk more pianos if you feel
like your voice is in the best form. So, interpretations inevitably vary, and
that’s what is so nice about music. There would be no two concerts that are
exactly the same.
[Note. In my interview with Sarah Chang, we discussed the interactive relationship between a soloist and accompanist in recitals.]
YH: That makes sense. Were some of these changes in
interpretations also rehearsed with Ohad?
MK: Not really. He is a very instinctive musician. We like
to rehearse so we’ve rehearsed a number of times. We also live in Berlin, which
makes communication easier. So, we’d just perform and then discuss details. All
in all, the collaboration I am having with Ohad is extremely smooth (MK
smiles).
YH: I’m glad to hear this. You’ve just used the phrase
“instinctive musician.” Would you see yourself as an instinctive musician?
MK: I think it’s always difficult to speak about yourself.
Like I said before, I do like to try out different things in my interpretations.
This was especially the case when I performed Baroque music in the past. That’s a field where there are a lot of very different opinions. That’s so because in a Baroque score, the composers never wrote dynamics and they also didn’t write ornaments. This means that every Baroque group and conductor has their own ideas. These ideas can often be opposed to each other. So, it was sometimes fascinating to sing exactly the same piece by Handel or Bach from two different conductors. And you ended up with two pieces that were quite different in terms of tempi, dynamics, and other ideas. I always liked this. Some of these ideas weren’t exactly my way, but I always thought they were interesting and I was willing to try and fit into someone else’s concept.
So, I guess I like the idea of making things on the spot. I probably am not the type of person to sit down to plan everything and execute everything according to
this plan - it’s not my way. I probably couldn’t be a conductor because to be a conductor, you
have to have a concept that everyone has to follow (MK smiles).
YH: Then to what degree do you stand your ground or
compromise in terms of interpretations when you collaborate?
MK: The interpretation always has to be musical. If there is
something that goes against the music, then I rebel. The interpretation also
has to go with the text. In Baroque music, there are certain stylistic constraints.
If somebody asks me to sing a Baroque piece with a huge vibrato, I won’t be
doing that. Then again, this is an extreme example and is quite rarely encountered. So, if
something makes musical sense and if I can see and find the idea behind it interesting, then it’s fine.
YH: We have indirectly touched upon this issue anyway,
but I thought I’d ask this general question a bit more directly. Given your
wide experience of the Baroque repertoire, what are your thoughts on the
Historically Informed Performance style?
MK: This movement went through various stages. There was a time
when Baroque music was played very Romantically. Then there was a period when
things were very purist in this Emma Kirkby way of singing, when people wanted
to do everything non-vibrato and exactly how things were written in books. And
when I started to work with people like Minkowski and Gardiner, people were
promoting a more naturalistic way of singing where there were certain singing styles that didn't alter the basic vocal techniques.
Generally speaking, I prefer to play Baroque music with Baroque instruments if I have a choice. This is because, first of all, the instrumental pitches are different. Baroque instruments are half-tone lower and in the case of French Baroque, the instruments are almost one tone lower. And these pieces were written for this pitch. So, it feels better for the voice. Secondly, the instruments have different colours. Baroque instruments are softer and rounder. The flutes are more like a human voice – they are much airier than a modern flute, which is bright. Everything is a bit more tender and sensitive than modern instruments. I think these characteristics fit Baroque music better.
But there are Canadian groups like Les Violons du Roy, for example, who play modern instruments in modern pitch, but they perform in the Baroque style. There are even big symphony orchestras that do something similar. For example, I recently performed Bach’s St Matthew Passion with the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra. These days, even people from symphony orchestras who usually play Romantic repertoire and who are trained in modern methods are interested in the Baroque style. I think what is most important is to be aware of and know the Baroque style and to be willing to play in that way.
YH: I also think it’s generally a healthy attitude to try
to diversify what we already have – it’s a way of finding new expressions. I
think the lack of willingness for change or experimentation, in any human
activity, can never be a good sign.
MK: Yes.
YH: In the end, regardless of what technical aspects we are diversifying, things
making music sense have to be the ultimate test.
MK: Yes.
IV.
YH: I want to quickly return to your concert programme. One thing I noticed is that you are performing a piece that you recorded a long time ago, namely Martinů's Novy Spalícek. I was excited to see this piece in the programme because Martinů is simply such a wonderful composer! I am curious why you decided to revisit this piece in your Korean tour this year?
MK: I wanted to give out a variety of Slavonic, Slavic
pieces that are related to folk songs. The Bartók piece, for example, is an arrangement of Slavic folk songs. He collected
different Eastern European folk songs. While Martinů's pieces are not based on folk songs, they are based on Moravian folk poetry. So
this piece fitted the programme. Also, it’s a piece I used to sing when I was young. This is a
piece that you sing when you start studying singing in the Czech Republic. It’s one
of the first song cycles people sing. This is so because the piece has simple
melodies – it’s not technically that complicated. On the other hand, there are
tricky rhythms and things that young singers can learn from. Also, this
simplicity of style is suitable for a young voice. So, this was a piece I
used to sing a lot as a young person. So it was all about coming back to my
roots.
YH: It’s a lovely story - I didn’t expect such a personal
link. I actually listened to your old recordings of this piece while I was
preparing for today’s interview. As I said, I love the music of Martinů, but it was the first set of songs I’ve
listened from the composer. Do you listen to other compositions by Martinů?
MK: Yes, I like Martinů very
much. I also sang in the opera Juliette, which is a complete
masterpiece. Martinů is a very interesting composer. I think he deserves to be
performed a little bit more. I guess after Janáček and Dvořák, I do understand that he is a bit less famous. Perhaps there
isn’t this consistency in his pieces because some of them are better than the
others. But I think the masterpieces are simply world-class music.
Martinů went through different stages – he fled to Paris during
the Second World War and then he went to New York in the United States. In
Paris, as was the case when he was in New York, he admired jazz. And he wanted
to combine jazz with the Czech-ness or Moravian-ness of his
compositions. He wrote in several different styles and tried a few things.
Overall, I think he is a very, very interesting composer.
YH: I agree with you. I heard Martinů was also hugely
influenced by Renaissance Madrigals.
MK: Yes.
YH: All this makes his musical voice so interesting.
MK: There’s a lot of variety.
YH: I think so. And he wrote so much as well! (YH laughs)
V.
YH: I’d like to return to one thing you said at the start of today's interview. Early, you mentioned that you take time to memorise and
absorb the texts of the song you are singing. When you sing, to what degree is the song text important to you relative
to the actual singing?
MK: For me, they have the exact same importance… although
this may occasionally depend on the style. For example, Dvořák is a composer of Romanticism. This means that while the song
text is important of course, the melody is the leading thing… somewhat.
(both laugh)
MK: For me, singing is telling stories. You are telling a story with your voice – you are singing, not speaking. But still, you are interpreting some text and the text should be understandable. I always say I am a bit of a strange singer because, in Mozart operas, I often prefer the recitatives to the arias.
(both laugh)
MK: I just like exploring how you can say and sing the text
in the most natural way. It’s the closest thing to acting. Of course, music is a bit more difficult compared to acting because the
rhythms are outlined by the composers. You cannot have too much liberty up
that front. But if the text is written well and if the composer was also
interested in the text – because some are more than others – then this musical
experience can be more powerful than just acting or just talking.
YH: That makes sense. Were there cases where you thought
that the melody of a piece was really good but that the text was quite bad that
you ended up not performing that piece?
MK: Yes. There are some archaic texts. Also, there can be
some old-fashioned Romantic repertoire where you do not identify at all with
the content. In these cases, it is better to not sing those pieces. But
generally, this doesn’t happen very often. And in the end, you are supposed to
be an actor. It means you don’t have to agree with the text (MK laughs). If you
play a horrible person in a play or an opera, you don’t have to become a witch
to perform one.
(both laugh)
MK: So yes, you can get past some barriers of bad song
texts. But I still won’t rule out the scenarios where some texts are too
old-fashioned that I don’t want to be telling this story. That happened to me
already.
YH: Can I ask which pieces they were? Or would this be
too personal that you’d rather not speak about it? (YH laughs)
MK: No, it’s not too personal (then pauses). There are some
early Dvořák songs or Smetana songs that are
coming from this nationalistic time. It’s just a bit too much and out of date. I
understand the texts had some meaning at that time when Bohemia was under German
powers, so people tried to promote this Czech-ness in music. But listening to
those pieces nowadays, I find them to be a bit too much.
(both laugh)
MK: And there are also some Baroque operas where you repeat
one sentence for ten minutes in Baroque arias. Usually, the story just stops,
and then you have arias and then coloraturas, and then you end up saying the same
thing repeatedly for ten minutes. That’s also not very interesting in terms
of the text. So there, the music has to be pretty good if you want to do that.
(both laugh)
YH: That makes a lot of sense.
You’re experiencing such a distinguished career. Do you
ever think about what your legacy might be? In other words, do you ever think
about what you might be leaving behind?
MK: Wow, that’s a difficult question. I guess we are all
living for a very short time. You are leaving behind some recordings (MK
laughs). But for me, ultimately music is about live performances. Music is all about what happens between the public and the performers during the moment of performing.
So, I don’t make many dreams about leaving something behind. What I love is
when I have a concert and some people come to me, telling me how they were in a
bad mood before but that the performance made them feel better. I also like it
when people tell me that certain song texts talked to them and that because of
that, they feel transformed after a performance. It might even be a tiny thing
(MK smiles). I think I value things that make us happy at a moment in time and make
us be happy together within a single space. This was something that was so missing and
lost over the two years with COVID-19. Having this human contact is so
important and that happens only in that very moment of live performances.
YH: I think I know what you mean. After all, I lecture as
a job, and there is a special magic in live lectures.
With this, I can only wish that you can beautifully
realise this moment of human contact in your Daegu performance tomorrow. Thank
you very much for your time.
MK: Thank you.
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| Magdalena Kožená, © Oleg Rostovtsev |