INTERVIEW | Seong-Jin Cho (Series 2, Part 2) | "If people only listen to famous composers, I will worry about the future of classical music"
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| Seong-Jin Cho, © Christoph Köstlin / DG |
I.
Young-Jin Hur (YH): When playing a concerto, what is the relationship between a conductor and a soloist?
Seong-Jin Cho (SC): It's an interesting one. Can you perhaps elaborate on the question a bit more, please?
YH: No problem. When it comes to the interpretation of a concerto, who has more influence? For example, in a symphony performance, I imagine the conductor has the most say with regards to the way the symphony will be played. In a concerto performance, would the interpretational responsibility be equally divided between the conductor and soloist?
SC: I think there are many variables at play, as this may depend on the piece and the soloist as well as the conductor. In terms of my input, I am not the type of person to fervently advocate my personal demands. This is not just in the context of playing concertos, but also in the context of playing chamber music and when I socialise with friends. I rarely tell people what to do.
Returning to your initial question, I think some conductors have a strong character and they influence my playing. Some conductors, on the other hand, are very sensitive – they follow my playing. Then there are those who “go together” with me. I never say one is better than the other. I enjoy all three ways of collaborating. In this context, Noseda belongs to the last category.
As I said earlier, the shape of collaboration also depends much on the piece being played. Chopin’s second concerto requires a special chemistry between the orchestra and the piano. At times, the orchestra sensitively accompanies the piano, but the orchestra also has moments of making its own big statements. In this way, the second concerto is quite an operatic piece.
During the recording of Chopin's second concerto with Noseda and London Symphony Orchestra, Noseda sympathetically accompanied my decisions whenever I applied rubatos. But in moments where the orchestra came up front, Noseda executed this with immense strength. All in all, I had fun recording the upcoming album with Noseda.
YH: Maybe it's just me. I consider Noseda to be an extroverted conductor – he can certainly make an orchestra “scream.” On the other hand, you seem to work so well on the introspective side of things. I wondered how the collaboration works.
SC: Even though Noseda may convey gestures that are physically expressive during live performances, I do not think that is ultimately the sound he creates. I can say this since I have spent many rehearsal hours sitting at the piano while he directs an orchestra in front of me. I would attend to what he does, feeling at times as if I were a student observing a lab demonstration…
(both laugh)
SC: In these rehearsals – and I think rehearsals are so important – I would learn of Noseda’s musical instincts and priorities. Overall, Noseda is an incredibly sensitive musician. He emphasises a certain natural sound from the orchestra. I like this approach, and this makes me feel comfortable whenever I collaborate with Noseda.
YH: I see! I would now like to ask you a blunt question about the new album. In many ways, what I will now ask you is not what I would consider a typical question of mine. However, since that I told your management beforehand that I will discuss the new album with you, I will honour our agreement by asking you what is typically asked in album release interviews (YH laughs). So, here it goes:
In the new album, is there something you would like your fans to particularly focus on?
SC: I receive this question a lot. For example, I was once asked, “you’re playing Rachmaninov’s second concerto. What should the listeners attend to?”
YH: Yes, this is very typical! (YH laughs)
SC: I will say something that will make me look far from humble. If I am asked this question, I am in a difficult position. Imagine if I were to answer with, “please focus on bar number 138 from the second movement.” I am sure this is not what people want to hear.
(both laugh)
SC: Still to this day, I do not understand the intentions behind this question – I don’t know how to respond (SC pauses). In any case...
... I recorded Chopin’s four Scherzos and the second piano concerto for the upcoming album. Because I recorded Chopin’s four Ballades and the first piano concerto five years ago, I wanted to release another Chopin recording. There is a sense that the two albums form a nice partnership. It’s not that I am embarking on a major Chopin recording project. It is perhaps more of a symbolic gesture that I return to a Chopin recording just over five years since my winning of the Chopin competition. I also requested that I stick with the same forces that I had collaborated with in the past album. I selected the four Scherzos because the Scherzos are the most substantial set of pieces Chopin wrote after the Ballades and the sonatas. So…
I don’t know - I don’t know if this is the answer you wanted.
(both laugh)
YH: This is great - this will do. As I said earlier, I will present our conversation nicely in the final publication.
(both laugh a lot)
YH: You have performed and recorded much Chopin. Out of curiosity, is there a Chopin piece you don’t like... for example, a piece that you neither want to perform nor listen to?
SC: There is a piece I like to listen to but which I don’t enjoy playing.
YH: Ah, what would this piece be?
SC: Études. It’s such a difficult piece to perform.
(both laugh)
YH: Did you ever have an occasion where you had to play a Chopin piece even if you did not like it?
SC: I once played Chopin’s piano trio even though I didn’t particularly like that piece. It’s an early piece by Chopin, and I don’t think I will play it again.
YH: Can you explain a bit more? Why don't you like this piece?
SC: Ah… I feel I am not being considerate at all towards Chopin when I say this: just give the trio a listen. You’ll know.
(both laugh)
YH: I feel obliged to listen to the trio now. Just to double-check, it’s the one in G minor, right?
SC: Yes.
YH: I would now like to ask you some broad questions about making recordings. How do you plan recordings?
SC: For each recording project, we plan a year to a year and a half in advance. This means that I have already made plans for an album I will record for next year's August or September - I also know which pieces I will be recording then.
My recital plans will then be scheduled according to that recording. It’s a form of business. Famous pop or rock musicians plan world tours to promote their new album – this is not too dissimilar in classical music too... although not everyone plays their music this way, of course. I’ve personally never been too attached to these promotional tours, but I still recognise their importance.
Anyway, once we decide on the pieces to be recorded, we then decide on the venue of recording. Until now, most of my solo pieces for Deutsche Grammophon were recorded in either Hamburg or Berlin. Once the venue is decided, we then decide on the date of recording, the piano to be used, and the producer. I usually record for four or five days for a solo studio album.
YH: What happens in a recording studio?
SC: I’ve developed my own recording pattern around two or three years ago. I arrive at the recording venue at around noon and warm myself up. I then play the to-be-recorded piece all the way through, even though I may not like my playing entirely. I then listen to my playing. Afterwards, I go back to the piano and play the piece again - I repeatedly play the piece from start to end numerous times, without taking breaks in the middle. I usually do this until the producer tells me to stop (SC laughs). The producer would occasionally tell me that some parts can be improved. This is the general recording process.
Recording a piece requires both mental and physical stamina. If I think about it, I cannot find a reason to like the recording process. While there is plenty of merit in the fact that I can repeat myself until I am happy, it is so rare that I am entirely happy with my performance. Of course, I am not always happy about my playing even in a live concert hall. But at least after a live event, I can tell myself that what’s done is done – I move on. On the other hand, there is a sense of endlessness when I perform in a studio for a recording. This repetition process can be very wearing and is probably what stresses me out the most during recording sessions.
YH: This is something I can sympathise with. Due to COVID19 last year, I had to deliver lectures at my university either as recorded live online lectures or as pre-recorded lectures. The latter involved recording an entire lecture before a class – I had to record my voice for each lecture slide. For similar reasons as you mentioned, this was not a happy process. The very possibility that I could record myself repeatedly to improve myself was quite unpleasant in the end. I was much happier recording live lectures. Essentially, this lecturing experience taught me the difference between studio recordings and live concert recordings.
(both laugh)
YH: I can imagine that you cannot repeat yourself too many times when recording a concerto, where there is an entire orchestra in front of you.
SC: Yes, that is correct. I think this is one of the reasons I enjoy recording with others. Even if I want to repeat myself, I cannot do that when others are involved.
YH: From now on, whenever you release a concerto recording in a studio setting, I will assume that you didn’t go through that torturous ordeal of repetition. I will assume you were happy when playing the concerto.
(both laugh)
YH: Do you have a unique philosophy or a set of habits when you record?
SC: I cannot think of anything unusual on the top of my head (SC pauses).
I tend to have my shoes off when I record. That is because I do not like the sound of shoes. I also like to have the lights dimmed because I can get distracted by the noise of lightbulbs.
YH: I am not aware that lightbulbs make noise?
SC: Yes, they can create a certain noise.
YH: For a moment, I was hoping you'd say that you like to have the lights dimmed because you want to make the studio feel like a lounge or bar.
(both laugh)
YH: Are you sensitive towards the type of piano you use during recordings?
SC: I do not think I am too sensitive about the piano I use. Of course, there is a great advantage to playing on a good piano. I can also think of some pianos being especially suited for playing Chopin’s music.
But at a certain point, I think what is most important is the artistry of the musician rather than the piano… provided that the piano meets a certain quality threshold. The good news is that given that I record for Deutsche Grammophon, it is highly unusual that I am provided with a piano of bad sound quality. That said, some people, such as Krystian Zimerman, are very sensitive about the type of piano used - I fear they will not agree with me.
YH: I can also imagine that the sound of a piano can be altered during post-recording edits.
SC: Yes, but that job is more to do with the sound engineers. I am not particularly involved in post-production.
YH: I was about to ask how much you are involved in post-production.
SC: Apart from the four or five recording dates where I obsessively play the piano, I am hardly involved in the rest of the recording process. The only thing I check is the final edit. If that version sounds unusual, I tell them – I usually ask them if they presented the sound like that on purpose. If they tell me that the edits were done so intentionally, I tend to go along. I believe that every sound engineer has their own philosophy and what I believe as sounding good may not be the case for others. For this reason, I respect these decisions.
YH: Could you, therefore, say that it is important to have a good recording team, akin to the importance of having good musical collaborators?
SC: Sure. But I have never had an issue so far regarding the recording team.
YH: I see. I have one more question regarding recordings. You may have implied about this earlier... do you have a preference between making studio and live concert recordings?
SC: I have not made a proper live concert recording yet, so it is hard to say. However, this is something I am certainly interested in. In fact, I am in talks with Deutsche Grammophon to release a live concert recording in around 2024. I have suggested the idea to Deutsche Grammophon, and the recording could either be a concerto or a solo recital album. Having a live audience creates a unique atmosphere and I would like to capture that through a recording one day.
YH: I would like to ask you some questions beyond recordings. For the next Chopin competition, do you have a candidate that you particularly support?
SC: A number of people I know will be taking part in the competition. I know some of them through my connections in Korea – and some of them, I know through the previous Chopin competition. If I say that I support one person in particular, I think the others will feel left out. Therefore, let us just say that I do not support anyone.
(both laugh)
SC: I will support whoever wins.
(both laugh)
YH: Do you actually have time in your hands to follow the development of up and coming musicians?
SC: Because COVID19 forced me to stay at home, I had time to look up and attend competitions online. For example, I’ve been following the Queen Elisabeth Competition, which is running without an audience. Sitting in front of my laptop, I would make predictions as to who would reach the next stage.
YH: How good are your predictions?
SC: They are awful (SC sighs). I started questioning my abilities, at one point even wondering if I have hearing problems. I am quite ashamed, to be honest.
(both laugh)
YH: While viewing these competitors, have you ever considered taking in students to mentor?
SC: I cannot say I am interested in education at the moment. Right now, I’m more focused on improving myself as a pianist. Of course, things may differ perhaps at a later time. I do not want to make hasty decisions regarding the future - things can always change, and what I might do in the future is not necessarily for me to say at present. Anyway, speaking of how things are right now, I do not have the luxury of time to educate others. Besides, I do not think I will be good at teaching – I’ll need more experience.
[Note. For discussions on education in music, see my interviews with Denis Matsuev and Maxim Vengerov.]
YH: You are absolutely right in that it is difficult to talk about the future. But let us say that you do take in some students in the future. In this scenario, I wonder what type of students you would feel most attracted to teach.
SC: In my case, conductor and pianist Myung-Whun Chung helped me so much in the beginning. I must admit though that I cannot imagine myself being in a position of so much influence across an entire country’s music scene as Myung-Whun Chung is. But if I ever take in students, I would love to assist them in a personal capacity. Just as I have had such wonderful teachers in the past, including Myung-Whun Chung, Kyung-Wha Chung, and Professor Soo-Jung Shin, I am interested in the development of promising musicians in Korea.
The thing is that there are so many talented musicians in Korea at present. Yet to be successful internationally as a Korean, one has to be much better than the existing standards abroad. Perhaps there are some subtle psychological mechanisms at play. To be a musician abroad requires the overcoming of various barriers beyond musical abilities themselves. I only wish that these barriers would dissolve one day. Until this happens, a Korean musician aiming for a career abroad must achieve an extraordinary musical ability, at the minimum. I simply wish to see more talented Korean musicians see their light abroad – they deserve the attention because I believe they have the musical capacity to do so. So, if any bit of advice - gained through my experience abroad - can be of help, I will gladly give this to these deserving musicians.
The only problem is that while I know that I can be of help, I do not have sufficient experience yet to know how I can be helpful.
YH: I can detect a sense of responsibility in you. And I agree that music education is never the education of musical techniques per se.
SC: Nowadays, I am not entirely sure what it means to be successful in the world of music. But I think the bare minimum is to be prepared. Looking at my career, it is not the case that I was able to build up my career due to the Chopin competition alone.
Prior to the competition, I had known Myung-Whun Chung and I had the opportunity to attend live concerts in France through which I had opportunities to converse with various conductors. Likewise, I had met and kept my contacts with people like Didier De Cottignies, Gergiev, Marek Janowski, and Pletnev before the Chopin competition. In the end, the competition simply was a platform through which I was able to prove and expand on a larger scale what I was already doing. While there was so much luck involved, there was much I can attribute to my preparation.
As an ambitious musician, I also think it is important to develop one's character and, importantly, physical stamina. In other words, various things seem to have to fall into place for a good career. Given the complexities involved in developing a career, it is never easy for me to advise someone on what to do specifically. Of course, I am assuming that you have to be incredibly good at playing the piano.
Another crucial element is to be contracted to a recording company that is right for you. In my case, I renewed my contract with Deutsche Grammophon last year... we did not talk about how long my contract will be. For me, this was a good piece of news because I believe Deutsche Grammophon and I are a good match. On the other hand, some musicians might not fit well with Deutsche Grammophon. One must learn to know oneself, to know what one wants, and what one is comfortable with. This is just based on my experience so far.
IV.
YH: How important is it for a young musician to manage one’s repertoire?
SC: I think it’s very important to plan your concertos. If you’re designing a new recital, for example, all you need is a small group of friends to whom you can perform one evening – that can be invaluable practice.
But concerto preparation is a new world altogether. Preparing a concerto to perfection at home does not mean you can play well in front of an actual orchestra. There can be times where you cannot engineer the sound you want to create when you are in front of an actual orchestra. This is especially crucial because the currency of a pianist’s career depends on their concerto repertoire… unless you are at the level of Sokolov where you do not need to further prove yourself (SC laughs).
If you are at a stage of trying to make a name, in most cases, the public also gets to know you by your concerto performances. People may go to a concert to listen to a symphony but may be captivated by the paired concerto. As a soloist, you are, thus, expanding your exposure to the public by performing concertos.
In my case, I was lucky because at an early stage even before the Chopin competition, I already had performed eight concertos with Myung-Whun Chung. This meant that I was both mentally and technically prepared for most core repertoire piano concertos. I feel lucky that I was accustomed to some of the famous concertos before my schedule became more hectic.
Nowadays, I design one recital programme and learn two concertos per year. I plan to do this until my 30s. I want to consistently develop my repertoire, without sudden expansion.
YH: Are there dangers of suddenly expanding one’s repertoire?
SC: This depends on the person. There are people who can perform a wide range of repertoire in a short amount of time. Daniel Barenboim played all 32 Beethoven sonatas in his teens and started playing Prokofiev immediately afterwards. In my case, I like to plan approximately two years before a performance. For example, I had planned to play Mozart, before preparing some French music... and then some Russian music. Sometimes, I would have to consider the particular wishes of specific orchestras.
Preparing around ten new concertos a year so that I switch between those concertos throughout the year? I did this back in 2013. Back then, I was fearless (SC laughs). But nowadays, my priorities have changed. Nowadays, I like to prepare pieces with more patience and care. I think it is important to find the right balance for oneself.
YH: I see. I observe that some conductors at an advanced age also narrow down their repertoire to focus on pieces that they truly like. I can think of Giulini, Mravinsky, and, to a certain degree, Furtwängler. I can see some great merits there.
SC: Certainly, playing a piece repeatedly over a stretch of time changes one's interpretation of that piece. Whether this is for the better or worse, one’s relationship with that piece changes. I see many advantages of delving into a piece of work.
YH: I agree with you. For you, is there a particular piece that you would like to play over the years?
SC: I cannot think of such a piece at the top of my head (SC pauses).
While I like to play pieces by renowned composers, I also have a passion for playing pieces that the public does not necessarily know. I may have a sense of responsibility to play these neglected pieces. Of course, Mozart and Beethoven are wonderful composers - but if people only listen to famous composers, I will worry about the future of classical music. For this reason, I have recently played Szymanowski’s Masques and Janáček’s sonata. I have also played Berg’s sonata in my latest solo recording.
YH: Janáček’s piano works are incredibly underrated.
SC: Yes. While these pieces have their following among music lovers, they are still largely unknown to most people.
I do not like everything that Schoenberg wrote, but I have plans to play some Schoenberg pieces that touch me deeply. I also think there is much to explore in the Baroque repertoire, such as Handel’s keyboard pieces. Perhaps I will not play an all-Handel programme, but I would love to include some Handel pieces as part of my recitals.
YH: Handel’s keyboard suites are such gems. I was astounded when I listened to those pieces recorded by Sviatoslav Richter in the 70s. And which pieces by Schoenberg interest you?
SC: Op. 11. There is also a piece that he wrote to emulate Baroque dances. This is his Op. 25.
YH: You said earlier that you would like to learn two new piano concertos and design a recital programme every year. What are you preparing for next year?
SC: For next year, I would like to play Schumann’s piano concerto and Bartók’s third piano concerto. If the Bartók doesn’t work out, I would like to learn Mozart’s ninth piano concerto.
In terms of the recital programme, I would like to pair Handel with Brahms’ Handel Variations. This would be the first half of the programme. I haven’t yet come up with what will come in the second half of this recital programme - perhaps some Schoenberg, who knows?
YH: That's great - I will look forward to these performances. As per usual, we talked about a wide range of topics today, and I had a great time. Thank you for making time today.
SC: Thank you.
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| Seong-Jin Cho, © Christoph Köstlin / DG |
[Click here for Part 1 of my 2021 (Online) interview with Seong-Jin Cho.]