INTERVIEW | Manfred Honeck | "Bruckner’s music can strike every human who has a soul and has a feeling for emotions"
In conversation with Manfred Honeck
Young-Jin Hur (YH): I am very happy to have you here today for our interview. How are you today?
Manfred Honeck (MH): I am doing very well. I just came back from rehearsal, and everything went well.
YH: I'm guessing that this rehearsal is related to the three-day concert you'll be having with the National Symphony Orchestra for the next three days.
MH: Exactly. We are programming Bruckner's Ninth Symphony, Beethoven's Fidelio Overture, and Beethoven's Two Romances.
YH: How do you feel the day before going into a three-day concert programme? Do you perhaps feel nervous?
MH: Oh, no. This is actually one of the things for which I, fortunately, am never nervous. Of course, things can always happen in the moment and I can change some things in the score. But generally, you are prepared very well through rehearsals. When you have practised and prepared well, things normally work out well, too.
But if you play in front of an audience as a young musician and the performance is not well prepared, then, of course, you have reasons to be nervous and should be nervous.
YH: I can imagine that experience can play a big role in the life of a musician.
MH: Absolutely. It is wonderful that you can grow with the experience you have with orchestras.
YH: I see. What are your expectations of playing the same programme three days in a row? In particular, are you hoping that all three concerts will be similar to each other? Or do you try to experiment a bit between the three concerts? Or do you try to develop your interpretations across the three concerts?
MH: When you have a concept and know how you want to interpret it, you will arrive at the first rehearsal with that concept fully developed. You already know what you want to achieve at the rehearsal. The expectation is that everything that you rehearse will also be executed that way in the performance. This is very high-level and the conductor has to expect that.
Now, there is always room for spontaneity and we should allow this as well. There are a lot of things to consider - each concert has a different kind of atmosphere, audience, and sometimes a distinct sense of occasion. You never know what happens. Sometimes, you have to react on the spot, offering certain melodies, rhythms, or the equivalent. These are things that I like because it's spontaneous and it's important to be this way. We, conductors, do not execute music like CD players do. It's a live concert, and it's a joy to see musicians on the stage play at the moment and hopefully at the highest standard.
And if something goes in a slightly different direction than what was planned, that's okay. But I allow that in myself and the orchestra as long as it is within a certain concept. But normally, I rehearse the orchestra in a way that gives a certain stability to a concept and I expect the concept to be there in all three concerts. Once again, there's no guarantee that the three performances will be the same. The third concert might be a bit more exciting - the musicians and I normally give a little bit more room for certain directions according to the experiences we had in the first two concerts... but all within the scope of what you initially wanted to say in the interpretation.
YH: Planned behaviour and spontaneity might seem like opposites that cannot exist together, but, of course, they can coexist.
MH: Absolutely. This is absolutely right and it is so beautiful. We are both musicians and humans.
YH: Are there any specific concepts you tend to prioritise during rehearsals?
MH: I always ask the orchestral musicians to execute what is behind the music. Let's take Bruckner's Ninth Symphony as an example, which I will perform this week. I have performed this piece several times. However, there is always something new to add... bowings, dynamics changes, and things like that.
The musicians already know my opinion about the piece. That's an important thing to consider because if you don't have that, then the musicians just play what is written - which is absolutely okay and it's also right, but it's neutral and it's not connected to what you personally think about the piece.
With Bruckner and with any other composer, it is essential to understand what is behind the music. Now you can, as a conductor, always tell the musicians technical things. You can advise them to play louder softer, earlier, or later, for example. You have to give technical instructions sometimes - that is for sure. But for me, the vast majority of my time, I talk about the background of the music. For me, that is one of the most important things to talk about. Because musicians nowadays are so technical, they can do everything written in the score - you can ask for everything. However, what is not written in the score is what the composer was thinking at the time of the composition, or at least what I believe the composer thought about the piece.
There are also important performance traditions that musicians from 100 years ago knew, which we may have forgotten over time. However, composers couldn't always capture within the written score exactly how certain pieces were performed in their era. So this is one of the most important aspects for me: to look behind the score and tell people stories, tell people why and how certain pieces were written, and what backgrounds they had. This is where I spend most of my time.
And you know what? When I provide an idea, a picture, or context about the composer, the sound from the orchestra completely changes. It is all about delivering the concept without giving technical instructions to the musicians. This always amazes me and I am more and more fascinated by this kind of rehearsal technique.
Interview on 1 May 2024
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| Manfred Honeck, © Todd Rosenberg |
There is an unmistakably spiritual quality in the symphonies of Anton Bruckner. Whether it is the sublime blaze of the Fifth Symphony, the prayer-like lyricism of the Seventh, or the dark passion of the Ninth, Bruckner's symphonies speak of big ideas and spaces, conveyed with sincerity, patience, and a kind of monumentalism that can strike the listener immediately.
A non-performing Bruckner enthusiast (like myself) may ask the following questions: "Where does this sense of spirituality in Bruckner's symphonies come from, and how can it be prepared for and expressed in live performances?" and "Who are the listeners of Bruckner symphonies?" These were among the topics discussed in an interview with Manfred Honeck, one of the greatest living Bruckner conductors.
Our conversation began with the general topic of rehearsals and what to expect in performing the same programme over multiple concerts. We then delved into the importance of understanding the meaning and history behind Bruckner's Seventh and Ninth Symphonies, how Bruckner's compositions reflect various facets of the composer's life, the characteristics of Bruckner listeners, and the performance of the completed edition of the Ninth Symphony.
Below is a transcript of our conversation. Minor edits have been made to improve readability.
Please note that the present interview is part of an ongoing interview series on the music of Anton Bruckner. See also interviews with Jukka-Pekka Saraste, Kazuki Yamada, Paavo Järvi, Edward Gardner, and Semyon Bychkov.
[Note. All interviews on the website are approved by the interviewee or manager prior to publication.]
I.
Young-Jin Hur (YH): I am very happy to have you here today for our interview. How are you today?
Manfred Honeck (MH): I am doing very well. I just came back from rehearsal, and everything went well.
YH: I'm guessing that this rehearsal is related to the three-day concert you'll be having with the National Symphony Orchestra for the next three days.
MH: Exactly. We are programming Bruckner's Ninth Symphony, Beethoven's Fidelio Overture, and Beethoven's Two Romances.
YH: How do you feel the day before going into a three-day concert programme? Do you perhaps feel nervous?
MH: Oh, no. This is actually one of the things for which I, fortunately, am never nervous. Of course, things can always happen in the moment and I can change some things in the score. But generally, you are prepared very well through rehearsals. When you have practised and prepared well, things normally work out well, too.
But if you play in front of an audience as a young musician and the performance is not well prepared, then, of course, you have reasons to be nervous and should be nervous.
YH: I can imagine that experience can play a big role in the life of a musician.
MH: Absolutely. It is wonderful that you can grow with the experience you have with orchestras.
YH: I see. What are your expectations of playing the same programme three days in a row? In particular, are you hoping that all three concerts will be similar to each other? Or do you try to experiment a bit between the three concerts? Or do you try to develop your interpretations across the three concerts?
MH: When you have a concept and know how you want to interpret it, you will arrive at the first rehearsal with that concept fully developed. You already know what you want to achieve at the rehearsal. The expectation is that everything that you rehearse will also be executed that way in the performance. This is very high-level and the conductor has to expect that.
Now, there is always room for spontaneity and we should allow this as well. There are a lot of things to consider - each concert has a different kind of atmosphere, audience, and sometimes a distinct sense of occasion. You never know what happens. Sometimes, you have to react on the spot, offering certain melodies, rhythms, or the equivalent. These are things that I like because it's spontaneous and it's important to be this way. We, conductors, do not execute music like CD players do. It's a live concert, and it's a joy to see musicians on the stage play at the moment and hopefully at the highest standard.
And if something goes in a slightly different direction than what was planned, that's okay. But I allow that in myself and the orchestra as long as it is within a certain concept. But normally, I rehearse the orchestra in a way that gives a certain stability to a concept and I expect the concept to be there in all three concerts. Once again, there's no guarantee that the three performances will be the same. The third concert might be a bit more exciting - the musicians and I normally give a little bit more room for certain directions according to the experiences we had in the first two concerts... but all within the scope of what you initially wanted to say in the interpretation.
YH: Planned behaviour and spontaneity might seem like opposites that cannot exist together, but, of course, they can coexist.
MH: Absolutely. This is absolutely right and it is so beautiful. We are both musicians and humans.
YH: Are there any specific concepts you tend to prioritise during rehearsals?
MH: I always ask the orchestral musicians to execute what is behind the music. Let's take Bruckner's Ninth Symphony as an example, which I will perform this week. I have performed this piece several times. However, there is always something new to add... bowings, dynamics changes, and things like that.
The musicians already know my opinion about the piece. That's an important thing to consider because if you don't have that, then the musicians just play what is written - which is absolutely okay and it's also right, but it's neutral and it's not connected to what you personally think about the piece.
With Bruckner and with any other composer, it is essential to understand what is behind the music. Now you can, as a conductor, always tell the musicians technical things. You can advise them to play louder softer, earlier, or later, for example. You have to give technical instructions sometimes - that is for sure. But for me, the vast majority of my time, I talk about the background of the music. For me, that is one of the most important things to talk about. Because musicians nowadays are so technical, they can do everything written in the score - you can ask for everything. However, what is not written in the score is what the composer was thinking at the time of the composition, or at least what I believe the composer thought about the piece.
There are also important performance traditions that musicians from 100 years ago knew, which we may have forgotten over time. However, composers couldn't always capture within the written score exactly how certain pieces were performed in their era. So this is one of the most important aspects for me: to look behind the score and tell people stories, tell people why and how certain pieces were written, and what backgrounds they had. This is where I spend most of my time.
And you know what? When I provide an idea, a picture, or context about the composer, the sound from the orchestra completely changes. It is all about delivering the concept without giving technical instructions to the musicians. This always amazes me and I am more and more fascinated by this kind of rehearsal technique.
II.
YH: That is really fascinating. Could you give me some examples of what you talked about in your rehearsal of Bruckner's Ninth Symphony?
MH: Sure. Let's take the third movement of the symphony. The big question is whether the structure is a sonata form or not. This will always remain a question. Many musicologists say that the movement is actually in three parts. I believe that what is more important is that the concept on which the movement is based is the Agnus Dei of the Catholic mass.
In a Catholic mass, we have the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Benedictus, and, finally, the Agnus Dei. Bruckner knew this by heart, of course. But you can also see how Bruckner embedded the words of Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis in this third movement. These words come out twice. And the third time, he says Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, dona nobis pacem. In other words, he says, "Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world, have mercy on us." He repeats this again. And then the third time, he says, "Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world, grant us peace." When you look at how Bruckner, in my opinion, created such a concept for this movement, you can nearly (MH emphasises the word "nearly") underline the words to the music.
YH: So you are saying that these words are clearly represented in the symphony?
MH: Exactly. The movement is conceptualised as an Agnus Dei. The movement is both a request and a prayer, saying, "Have mercy on us." It is wonderful, for example, when Bruckner describes through the strings peccata - mundi - miserere (MH hums a section of Bruckner's music), he uses the chromatic steps. In this section, I ask the musicians to play with sorrow and pain... with a doroloso sound. Then the movement reaches the dramatic second section (MH hums a different section this time); it is singing peccata - mundi - peccata - peccata (MH hums the same melody but with these words). It is so dramatic! The musicians have to know that this movement is actually about the sins of the world.
You don't have to be Catholic to understand this, please do not misunderstand. It is just the way Bruckner thought, as he was a devoted Catholic. He integrated his life into his music. And if you talk about this with the musicians, you hear the sound change. When the strings play (MH hums another section of the movement, this time a descending melody), the musicians play this like a march to Golgotha, with the biggest sound... not necessarily polished. The music becomes so dramatic as if one is walking to a crucifixion, so to speak.
If you explain the music to the orchestra this way, you don't have to tell them to play stronger or heavier. They already understand how the music should be played. In the section after that, the flutes are playing miserere - miserere, which is an exceptionally beautiful section. You tell the musicians to not just play the notes but play as you would pronounce or sing the word miserere (MH hums with the words of miserere). When you do this, you have a crescendo and a diminuendo. You don't have to tell the musicians to play a crescendo and diminuendo. Let them play miserere.
YH: It is interesting to know that you don't have to be Catholic to musically express these religious connotations.
MH: Yes. I emphasise that you don't need to be Catholic. What Bruckner asked for in the score is very clear to me. So you have this dramatic brass with accents. In the strings, you have these walking notes. And then it is the prayer, the request, the dolce, "Please have mercy on us."
Sometimes, you have to change something in the score. In the string section after the request, the miserere, there is a long note which is originally marked as forte. And I ask that we start a little bit softer before going to forte. I explain this decision to the musicians: this sound has to be like the opening of heaven's door. After peccata mundi, miserere, this is the result of that. That is why I believe that Bruckner has such a beautiful long note which, for me, is like entering heaven. I ask the musicians to use a special vibrato here - they should start slowly and then quicken it. If they do so, the sound opens in a way that is sensational. Although Bruckner wrote forte, this doesn’t really mean a plain forte here – it has to be played in connection with the meaning behind the music.
In a similar way, I also changed some of the bowing in the second movement, so that it has a stamping character. Here, I ask the strings not to just play fortissimo as written but to play in a way that you wildly stamp out the notes with aggressive, downward movement. In this movement, Bruckner is describing the world of spirits – it is a demonic movement. So everything is a little bit spooky.
III.
YH: Based on the way you describe Bruckner’s music, do you see Bruckner as a composer of dramatic and tragic music?
MH: No, no, no. Bruckner has everything. So I wouldn’t confine him as a dramatic composer. To understand Bruckner’s music, you have to find out what he was really like as a person. Let’s not forget that when Bruckner’s father died, he had to move out of the house. The Bruckner family had no money so he was sent to live with an aunt for some time and then to the St. Florian Monastery. Here he learnt vocal music - not only the singing of the boys’ choir but also all the liturgy. He learnt the life of a monastery world. I think this is very important because it is here that he internalised the ideas of when to kneel down, what is the Eucharist, what it means to pray, what is involved in praying, and so on. He kept these ideas for the rest of his life, so I think this experience is essential for Bruckner’s religiosity – and we have to understand this as musicians. And then he delved into his organ playing. He was in Linz and then he was a principal organ player in St. Florian – and then he went to Vienna as a teacher. In Vienna, he really impressed people there with his improvisation on the organ and nobody could keep up with him.
YH: I recall reading in a Bruckner biography that his organ improvisation was so impressive that in an examination for a post, one of the examiners thought that Bruckner should be the one examining them, not the other way around!
MH: Yes, you’re right.
YH: What other aspects beyond religion do we have to understand of Bruckner’s life when understanding his music?
MH: We should not see Bruckner only as a religious person. He was an organist and a university professor as well. So he knew all the theories on counterpoint and harmony. And all this has an impact on his symphonies, needless to say. What we sometimes forget is that he was also very deep in the folkloristic world. He played nearly every weekend as a viola or violin player in a group for weddings or celebrations. He knew all these folk dances, the Ländler, the Polkas, and the marches – he knew everything. So he was very much into the Austrian folk music scene.
Of course, you hear these elements also in his symphonies. In every symphony, there is something of this folk tradition. And now the question is to know in which style you have to play this tradition. Going back to the Ländler, there is the Steirischer Ländler, the Salzburger Ländler, and the Bayerischer Ländler … they are all a little bit different. When you listen to Johann Strauss’ music, you know exactly what we mean by this. There are both heavy and light Ländler.
Bruckner knew all these varying types of folk music and he refers to these folk traditions in his symphonies. So despite Bruckner’s religiosity, I would be careful not to reduce Bruckner to someone who was only religious.
YH: I am curious about any other examples you might have in linking Bruckner’s life with his music.
MH: I will tell you one example that always strikes me. Of course, it is a personal view of mine so I might be wrong. It concerns the first movement of Bruckner’s Seventh Symphony, which is one of my most loved movements. In this movement, there was a section that always left me wondering. It concerns the entrance of the timpani (MH pauses). Bruckner only lets the timpani enter nearly at the end, in the coda, but not earlier, during sections of orchestral unisons that accompany bombastic, brass fortissimo. I always wondered why he never used the timpani in these loud sections as he usually does in his other symphonies. I didn’t have an answer to this question for a long time. After all, it’s typical that you use the timpani to support the rhythm of orchestral unisons.
I took a closer look at the score. Bruckner wrote, Feierlich for the coda, meaning “celebratory”. Just before the coda, he starts a section with a pianissimo – there is a 12-bar crescendo to fortissimo – and then a 12-bar diminuendo to pianissimo again. One day, it occurred to me that Bruckner was describing here – and I am convinced about this – the moment in a Catholic mass where the priest on the altar is transferring the bread to the body of Christ and the wine to the blood of Christ. What is he doing here? He’s slowly lifting the bread and slowly bringing it down again. What happened before? The people in the church kneel down. So four bars before the entrance of the timpani, Bruckner writes a pianississimo – and when the people in the church usually kneel down, this is the quietest moment in the mass – just as it is the quietest moment in the symphony. When Bruckner writes the tremolo section with this beautiful melody, which gradually becomes stronger with a fortissimo, I can’t help but imagine these scenes in the Catholic mass. This might be the answer to why Bruckner saved the timpani for this special moment. And it is what Bruckner meant by Feierlich – it is a moment of celebration. I described this to the orchestra while I was recording Bruckner’s Seventh Symphony with the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra.
[Note. In my recent conversation with conductor Jukka-Pekka Saraste, we also talked about Bruckner’s Seventh Symphony.]
IV.
YH: When did Bruckner come into your life? I heard some musicians say that Bruckner comes late in life.
MH: That Bruckner comes late in life is a common perception of Bruckner. Equally, Tchaikovsky and Beethoven also come late in life. But there is not much time – we can’t just wait for our hair to turn white with wisdom and experience (both laugh).
I loved Bruckner already from my childhood. I already sang Bruckner’s music while I was a choir boy for one year in Stift Zwettl, which is located in the northwest of Vienna. There, I learned and sang various choral pieces of the Renaissance period as well as those by Bruckner. And then, my father took me one time to a Vienna State Opera Chorus concert where they performed all the motets of Bruckner. I was blown away by the concert. As a child, I was already really touched by Bruckner’s music. Also, my first concert as a violinist in a youth orchestra was Bruckner’s Fourth Symphony. It was such a beautiful experience – I then bought an LP of the symphony and listened to it continuously.
In this period of my life, I admit did not completely understand Bruckner’s music, even though I loved his music so much. I had to learn various things and work through the music. I had to understand Bruckner’s life so that I could understand the parts of his life that were transferred into his music. For example, I like to discover which part of the music reflects Bruckner the professor and which part of the music reflects Bruckner the person who liked to dance and enjoy life. We always think Bruckner was someone who was only serious but it’s not true. He was a person who loved life.
Bruckner speaks to every human. It's not 80 years of experience that enables you to understand Bruckner. No, no, no. Bruckner’s music can strike every human who has a soul and has a feeling for emotions. Once you get him, you will never lose him, I think. Bruckner is so strong in me. That's happened to me and I am sure it happens to other people as well.
YH: Nowadays, we talk a lot about the various editions and versions of Brucker symphonies. I am curious what you think about the completed version of the Ninth Symphony and whether you will ever play this version of the work?
MH: I have great respect for those who are trying to complete the Ninth Symphony. They put all their experience into writing what they believe Bruckner would have composed – it’s great what they are doing.
But I personally think that the third movement of the Ninth Symphony is one of the greatest movements Bruckner completed and, for me, it is very difficult to top that. By the way, a similar comparison can be made for Schubert’s unfinished Eighth Symphony. I once had a chat with Nikolaus Harnoncourt and he said he tried to make it a tradition of his to never play another piece after this symphony. He always wanted to end a concert with the symphony because, after the second movement, you cannot play anything else afterwards. And that is exactly what I feel about the third movement of Bruckner’s Ninth Symphony. This is such a powerful movement. This is Bruckner throwing out everything he has in his soul. How can we top this? That’s the reason why I personally decided to end every performance of the symphony with the third movement. We also don’t know how Bruckner would have composed the fourth movement.
YH: Although you may have indirectly touched upon this topic before, do you think Bruckner attracts certain types of listeners?
MH: Nowadays, people are very open to varying styles of music and I would not say that only religious people come to Bruckner performances. Those who get to know Bruckner will come back to Bruckner. There are people who may think Bruckner’s music is too long and a little too structured. But if you’re an audience member at a Bruckner concert, if you let the music speak to you, if you let the music happen, I guarantee that Bruckner is for everyone. It’s music for every age – you can be 10 years old or 80 years old. Because the music is so strong and so genial, it can tell you everything. It speaks to everybody. And whether you live in Europe, America, Africa, or Asia, we all share the same human capacity for feeling. Therefore, I think it is right to bring people to concerts whenever you can and let the music happen – then, things will work out.
[Note. In my recent conversation with conductor Paavo Järvi, we also discussed the topic of who the Bruckner listeners are.]
Of course, perceptions can differ sometimes. I still remember I had a concert in Japan when I started my conducting career. The manager of the orchestra said, “Maestro, we want to have you back. What would you like to perform next?” I said, “I would like to play Bruckner.” Then, the manager said to me, and I will never forget, “Bruckner… white hair.”
(both laugh)
MH: In other words, you need white hair to perform Bruckner. Back then, I did not have white hair. And now that I have white hair, people may think that I’m a Bruckner conductor (both laugh), but I think this is completely wrong. For any age, Bruckner is a sensational experience.
YH: I am very glad to hear that. I am very glad that we had this conversation tonight. Thank you very much for making time today.
MH: Likewise – take care. It was wonderful to talk to you.
YH: Likewise. Thank you - goodbye.
MH: Goodbye.
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| Manfred Honeck, © Felix Broede |
Young-Jin Hur
@yjhur1885
© Where Cherries Ripen / Young-Jin Hur